“Why Your Work Matters” with Tom Nelson
Show Notes:
If you are a pastor, a Christian, or a Christ-centered leader in any way, this conversation may change your life.
At the very least, we hope you’ll come away with a new framework for putting your faith into daily practice. Today’s guest, Tom Nelson, is passionate about equipping God’s people for their daily life. He wants us to shift the paradigm of being a Church that only gathers on Sunday to being a Church that has the compassion, capacity, and imagination to make real changes in our Monday world.
Tom has served as the senior pastor at Christ Community Church in Kansas City for over 30 years. He is the founder and executive chairman of Made to Flourish, an organization that equips pastors and other Christ-centered leaders to bridge the Sunday-to-Monday gap--allowing our faith to converge with our places of work.
Resources:
Learn more about Made to Flourish
Buy Tom’s book, Why Your Work Matters
Transcript:
Chris McAlilly 00:00
I'm Chris McAlilly.
Eddie Rester 00:02
And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.
Chris McAlilly 00:04
Today we're talking to Tom Nelson. Tom is the lead senior pastor at Christ Community Church
in Kansas City, Missouri, but he's also, many years ago, started an organization called Made to
Flourish. It's an organization that is meant to empower pastors and churches to integrate faith,
work, economic wisdom, and the flourishing of their communities. And today we're talking
about his most recent work,
"Why Your Work Matters."
Eddie Rester 00:33
He talks to us about the Sunday to Monday gap, that often we think of Christianity as our
primary purpose is to gather on Sunday, but actually our primary purpose is to live in our
workplaces, whether that workplaces at home or paid or unpaid on Monday, and then in the
Monday world. And it's an amazingly theological and practical conversation at the same time,
so much hope for the work of the church, but also, I think, a challenge for the church in how we
redirect our focus to how we equip people for when they step out into the world on Monday.
Chris McAlilly 01:14
Yeah, I think so much of Christianity is a caricature, but so much of the Christianity in the
popular culture is around "I have faith in Jesus, my Lord and Savior, so I can go to heaven when
I die.
" And so much of the real stuff, the faith that's passed down and inherited through the
saints, is a faith that has a thickness and a robustness to it, where we have this incredible story
of God creating the world, creation unraveling and disintegrating, but then God's continual
faithfulness through the Abrahamic covenant, through the story of Moses, and ultimately in the
story of Jesus to redeem creation, and ultimately to take things to a place where everything is
made new.
Chris McAlilly 02:07
And this, that's the story of scripture from beginning to end. What Tom does is to begin to
unpack the ways in which that impacts what we do, whether we're working in business,
economics, law, education, health care, all the different sectors. And he just has a lot of
experience doing this within his church and for people across the country. And man, this is such
a good conversation. I love this one.
Eddie Rester 02:34
Just a gift. Just such a gift. It doesn't matter where you are, whether you're a pastor, a church
member, somebody who's not sure. The way he frames the scriptural story, and then allows
that to begin to define the work of the church, the work people, our conversations. Just, I was,
you know, just, it was an exciting conversation. Enjoy it. Look him up. The book that he is
releasing this spring, is "Why Your Work Matters.
" You can go on Amazon right now, order it.
Tom Nelson. I think you're gonna be blessed by it. I think you're gonna be encouraged by it. I
know you're gonna be challenged by it. But enjoy this conversation today. Make sure you like it.
Share it. Share with the pastor, share with the church members. Share it with the leaders.
Chris McAlilly 03:17
Share with your mama. Share it with your grandmama.
Eddie Rester 03:19
Your mama or your daddy, your grandkids, somebody. Make sure somebody else besides you
listens. But we're thankful for you and that you're in the journey with us.
Chris McAlilly 03:28
[INTRO] Leadership today demands more than technical expertise. It requires deep wisdom to
navigate the complexity of a turbulent world, courage to reimagine broken systems, and
unwarranted hope to inspire durable change.
Eddie Rester 03:46C
As Christ-centered leaders in churches, nonprofits, the academy and the marketplace, we all
carry the weight of cultivating communities that reflect God's kingdom in a fragmented world.
Chris McAlilly 03:57
But this weight wasn't meant to be carried alone. The Christian tradition offers us centuries of
wisdom if we have the humility to listen and learn from diverse voices.
Eddie Rester 04:07
That's why The Weight exists, to create space for the conversations that challenge our
assumptions, deepen our thinking, and renew our spiritual imagination.
Chris McAlilly 04:17
Faithful leadership in our time requires both conviction and curiosity, rootedness in tradition
and responsiveness to a changing world.
Eddie Rester 04:25
So whether you're leading a congregation, raising a family, teaching students, running a
nonprofit, or bringing faith into your business, join us as we explore the depth and richness of
Christ centered leadership today. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
Eddie Rester 04:41
Well, today we're here with Tom Nelson. He works with a group called Made to Flourish. It's his
work. And we're going to talk today about the intersection of spaces, how we move from
Sunday faith to Monday life, how we think about flourishing in the world. So Tom, thanks for
joining us today.
Tom Nelson 05:02
Eddie and Christopher, it's just great, great to be with you. I'm excited about our conversation.
Eddie Rester 05:06
I have to say that the 10 minutes we've had to talk before the conversation have been
engaging and fun, and really, I'm already, already excited about the conversation today.
Tom Nelson 05:17
Well, I'm not very fun, but you guys are fun, so that must be it's going to be a fun conversation.
No, it's really great to be with you. I'm looking forward to learning, listening, engaging with you.
It'll be fun.
Chris McAlilly 05:24
For folks who don't, don't know you and don't know your work, maybe give just kind of a the
thumbnail bio. Kind of, what's your story?
Tom Nelson 05:33
Yeah, I mean my story, I had the privilege of serving a wonderful congregation in Kansas City,
out in the middle of nowhere, right, flyover city, home of the Chiefs, or at least we used to say
that. I don't know, but yeah, I've been here for 37 years. Can you imagine being a front row
seat and on a good day when we started, there were two of us as members in an apartment. So
I have a great privilege of serving a wonderful local congregation of Christians who, I'd say,
love God with their mind really well, love God with their hearts and their hands. At least we
attempt to do that. That's our aspirational goal.
Tom Nelson 06:05
And so I still am a part of that. I will transition in my role in a year or so because I'm going to
hand that off, and I'm excited about that, and I'm a part of launching and leading an
organization called Made to Flourish. Made to Flourish is about, I guess, nine years old. We
launched it, and the focus is to really help pastors and churches integrate faith, work, and
economic wisdom for the flourish in their community. So we are trying to help build that bridge
between we call this Sunday to Monday, and help churches really be churches for Monday. So
that's kind of what I do.
Chris McAlilly 06:35
I think so many church leadership conversations are about helping the church to self preserve,
or to be larger or to be more vibrant. One of the things that I'm attracted to in your work is this
kind of broader purview for the work of the church. And you use the word flourishing, which is a
word that I think is really powerful. I wonder how you define it.
Tom Nelson 07:03
Yeah, well, flourishing is an organic metaphor. It's a life giving metaphor, unlike, you know,
buildings or other kind of things. So I think embedded in that language is an organic
understanding of the world, which I would say comes from creation, original creation. So I think
we would simply understand flourishing from if we have a biblical worldview, if we understand
creation story is something that's really shaping our imaginary, that God created us in an
environment in relationship with creation, with himself and with one another, in a place of great
abundance and joy. And that is the picture of the Edenic sort of flourishing that we were
designed to have.
Tom Nelson 07:44
Of course, we if we understand the double story that Edenic, beautiful place and relationship,
relational integration and all that gets smashed a bit in Genesis three, with the entry of sin and
death into the world. So but I think that has to be tied to God's original creation design of
flourishing, that is individual. It's internal. It's external. It's vertical, and it's horizontal of all
creation.
Eddie Rester 08:10
When I think of that, I think of Jesus saying,
"I came that you might have life and have it
abundantly," abundant life. And so often we, people in the church, confuse that, twist that,
stumble over that in some ways, sometimes well meaning ways, because they make
abundance about a very Western notion of abundance. I think that it's about, what do we have?
What have we accomplished? What do we do? And values on that and so but there's a much
broader way I think that you would want us to read that.
Tom Nelson 08:47
I would think so, too. I do think, you know, we're all products are of our cultural framework. But
I would just turn back to the Old Testament text. I mean, I'm a Christian pastor and an author. I
think it's the greatest story ever told. And when we think about the Old Testament, I would just
say, that conversation, I would center that idea in Genesis 17, one through three or four. And
Genesis 17 is the crescendo the Abrahamic covenant of God's redemptive story in the world. Of
course, it looks forward to Jesus and back to the garden, but God says to Abram in Genesis, 17,
"I am the Lord God Almighty, walk before me and be whole."
Tom Nelson 09:26
And so the that invitation is built around two Hebrew imperatives. Literally, it means to walk in
my face. It's the idea of intimacy. And then, behold, is the Hebrew idea of Tom Tamim, which
means to be integral or seamless or whole, and then flowing from that is God's wonderful
promise to Abram as the father of the nations, the plan of redemption, right, that he's going to
have a new identity, a new name, and the nations are going to be blessed, and he's going to be
amazingly fruitful. So here's the flow that I see of God's story. That we are called to live into
that is more comprehensive. I'd use the word integral, because that's the Tom Tamin Hebrew
idea.
Tom Nelson 10:06
And just the flow, I just might say, guys, the flow in the crescendo they were at covenant really
frames that, I think, beautifully, that the foundation of flourishing and the life we were created
frames that, I think, beautifully, that the foundation of flourishing and the life we were created
to live is first intimacy. So relational intimacy is number one of flourishing and how we are
designed. And from that flows integralness, that's wholeness, seamlessness versus bifurcation
or dichotomies. And then out of intimacy and integrity flows influence or fruitfulness: our new
identity and our blessing to the world. So I've always found Genesis 17 frames that idea. I don't
know Eddie and Christopher, that makes sense to you, but it really frames the sequence and
flow of God's design for human flourishing in creation and obviously in redemption, through
Abraham and not through Jesus, as Christians, we believe.
Eddie Rester 10:51
I think right there around Genesis 17, correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't read that full story a
long time, but I think that somewhere right in there is where Abraham says to God, "oh, thatIshmael might live in your sight."
This moment where he's like, "don't I have enough? Do I have to keep moving? Keep walking?"
I mean, is that right in there as well?
Tom Nelson 11:12
I think so, because the Hagar story. But the key on that is that's true. I'm sure you're right, but
it's also the anticipation of the promises. So he has this massive gap, I think, from 13 year gap
between 16 and 17. But I love that picture of the crescendo of Abrahamic covenant, because I
do think that really addresses what you're saying, that true flourishing is not only individual, it's
communal, and it flows from intimacy with God and others. So intimacy, relationships are
number one. I mean, see, then wholeness flows out of that, or integral life, and then out of that
flows the sense of influence and blessing and fruitfulness. I think that's the pattern of scripture
that we want to try to live into.
Eddie Rester 11:56
And I think sometimes, as I hear that how we... Maybe barriers? I'm trying to figure out how to
ask the question, even, of we lay down our own barriers to that sometimes, I think. Don't we? in
our communal life and our family life, even in our our church life? How do you see all of that
working out with our own brokenness?
Chris McAlilly 12:19
I think one of the things...
Tom Nelson 12:20
That's a big question.
Chris McAlilly 12:21
I think one of the things I appreciate about your approach is the storied nature of it. And so, you
know, part of the, yeah, we could name a range of barriers, and they get conceptualized or
framed up in particular ways within our cultural narratives and our political narratives, and
oftentimes they're kind of distilled down through whatever polarized kind of tribe you find
yourself in. And so you're looking at the barriers that the other tribe puts forward.
Chris McAlilly 12:51
And I think, you know, the biblical story is that creation, I guess, as I read your work, Tom, and
you can kind of flesh this out, is that if you begin with creation, kind of this thick description of
God's desire for human flourishing, broadly conceived, then sin and the fall and the kind of the
brokenness and the unraveling of creation becomes a really important part of the story, and
one that I think is unique to what Christians are bringing to the broader conversation within the
public sphere. I wonder if you could just kind of flesh that that part of the story for folks, just
kind of remind us, talk us through how you think about how the fall impacts or unravels human
flourishing.
Tom Nelson 13:39
Yeah. And maybe I could just back up a little bit from my own studies. I was taught a lot on
systematic theology, which is important for logical consistency. I didn't have the same teaching
as I needed for biblical theology, which deals with canonical coherence, is taking all the
scripture and trying to find the narrative connections. So I may say, first of all, before we get to
the fall, if you'd like, I think one of the most important things to help us navigate through the
complexity of scripture and the complexity of life and bringing God's story to our story, into our
world, is to see the scriptures primarily through the lens, again, without too much reductionism.
Tom Nelson 14:14
That, I mean, there's a lot of complexity. It is a four chapter story. Much of my writing, much of
our conversation, and what I do, we talk a lot about this four chapter story, guys, and I just
want to, let me highlight that, and I'll point if you want to go a little more into chapter two. But
really, one of the most helpful ways to navigate scripture and navigate our own lives and bring
God's story into our story is the fourth chapter story, which is the Bible narrative that has the
original creation, the fall, redemption, and then new creation, or consummation. And the
probably the best way to grab that bridge is to think of four words that mirror this: the ought,
the is, the can, and the will.
Tom Nelson 14:54
And most of my writing and the work, we talk a lot about framing the biblical story through
what ought to be right That's original. Creation in Genesis one and two, what is begins, at least
in the corruption, disintegration is a better word, of God's perfect creation in Genesis three and
following. We see a lot of that. We experience it in our own life, right? The is, is of our
brokenness and life and justice and culture. But God didn't leave the is as it is, for one. H e
says, "I'm going to make this different."
Tom Nelson 15:23
So there's the can is redemption. God is in a plan of redeeming his creation, all of creation. So
the audience can but one day, the Bible says, at the end of time and the new heavens, new
earth, life will be as it ought to be. It's kind of like a return to the garden, Garden City. So the
way I communicate that, the way I navigate that is the ought is I will interact with people. I will
help them see through culture, through injustice, through marriage, through relationships,
through what ought to be, what is, work as well, what ought to be, what is, what can be, what
will be.
Tom Nelson 15:56
I have just found that not only really tracks the biblical story with integrity, that the whole
canonical coherence, but it helps us as individuals live into that story. Because a lot of
conversations around marriage, right, around work, and people said to me,
"That's kind of an ugly is, isn't it?" Yeah, that is, there's a lot of is, a lot of brokenness, but God has called us to be
agents of redemption, to move creation, move our lives more with, obviously, in Christ and my
understanding to what can be. But then ultimately, we have to have hope for realism. We're not
going to fully bring this new heavens, new earth in to bear, and one day we will, and God will in
his own way, and we have to live in hope for realism and proximate justice and proximation,
because we're not yet in that future space. Is that helpful?
Chris McAlilly 16:40
It's very helpful.
Tom Nelson 16:42
I mean, it has helped me. It helps me navigate.
Chris McAlilly 16:43
No, it's so helpful.
Eddie Rester 16:44
Absolutely.
Chris McAlilly 16:45
It's so helpful. And, you know, I think maybe for folks who so... I think that biblical framework
and the story, that scripture kind of allows us to map over the world, is one that we think of as
a Sunday story. It's a story that gets told on Sunday, and then folks, you know, kind of come in
and leave. And then, you know, there's somebody who works... I was talking yesterday to a guy
who's working as a vice president of regional bank, and he's talking to folks, he's looking at the
economic indicators, and they don't look great. You know, there's a lot of uncertainty that's
being kind of introduced into the market by kind of new set of political aims related around
tariffs. There are questions about what the Federal Reserve is going to do as it relates to
inflation. There are questions around how tariffs of Canada and Mexico are going to impact
really important industries like construction and how that's going to affect the housing crisis in
America. How do you think about those? Take the framework and then apply it to how you
might communicate to somebody who's a Christian, who's a Christ-centered leader, working in
a bank context, navigating complex economic realities.
Tom Nelson 18:13
Yeah, well, you beautifully articulated all the macro. There's macro, economic, political forces
that any individual that is in church on Sunday with you that you serve, a parishioner, is going
to enter a Monday world.
Eddie Rester 18:25
Right.
Tom Nelson 18:25
In an economic world, a marketplace that is global, that is all deeply interconnected. And so I
think the fact that, as pastors and some of us are aware of that, that helps us understand how
complex God's people are serving him and the neighbor in this really well, it's a volatile time.
The military uses the VUCA acronym everywhere. It's like--and this is true in the pandemic--It's
volatile. It's uncertain. It's chaotic. And it's ambiguous. This is the market we're in. This is the
world we're in. So I think I would just simply say, and we could talk more about that, but that is
the uncertainty, the volatility, the ambiguity, the challenges, the change, the pace of change.
We have AI. Just there's a lot that's being thrown at us in our cultural moment.
Tom Nelson 19:12
But I think what we have to do is to say, first of all, if we believe in God, he's sovereign over
this. Ultimately, he's moving history forward. That doesn't take out human agency or
responsibility. And I think we have to say that at the end of the day, we believe that God is
going to move history and move our lives forward to a good end. And I think that helps give me
hope. And then I think there's a recognition that suffering, right, the is, the brokenness of the
world, in the workplaces and our marriages and friendships and relationships is a part of our
Monday world.
Tom Nelson 19:44
You know, at the church I serve, we talk a lot about it being a church for Monday. Our focus is
equipping God's people for their Monday world, wherever that is, paid and unpaid work. So I
equipping God's people for their Monday world, wherever that is, paid and unpaid work. So I
want to help them understand that they're agents of flourishing. They're agents of hopefully
good ethics and virtue in their space. But they're also going to face the difficulty of suffering,
and that suffering and struggle is not senseless. It's a part of our formation. So we could press
more into that, but it's not to minimize the difficulty. As a follower of Jesus, it's very real, but it
can be embraced with a sense of hope for realism rather than despair.
Chris McAlilly 20:17
Yeah, just to press on this, I know I won't give Eddie a chance to jump in.
Eddie Rester 20:17
No, go ahead.
Tom Nelson 20:22
There's a lot there. I mean...
Chris McAlilly 20:23
There's a lot There's a lot there. And I think, I guess the thing that I think about is, the is of the
economic macro realities are what they are. And oftentimes, I think we live in a flattened world
where is, is all we see, you know. And it takes... You know, God is not the subject of active
verbs. And there is no transcendent story that might break into what Charles Taylor would call
the eminent frame. There's a sense that we're just living on this one plane, world, and
oftentimes that's a world in which there's a scarcity of goods and resources. And so we live in
this kind of zero sum world from an economic perspective.
Chris McAlilly 21:10
And if you place the story of economics, what is, within this larger story of what ought to be,
what was in the beginning, and what could be by virtue of God's creative action, both in
creation and in redemption, I guess, for me, the way I think about is that it opens up the
possibilities. You might invest in certain areas that other people would see is an impossibility.
Christians might come in and see possibility for human flourishing, that might not otherwise be
there.
Chris McAlilly 21:43
You know, I see people doing that in places like the Mississippi Delta or I see it...
Tom Nelson 21:47
Right.
Chris McAlilly 21:48
You know, happening in kind of urban centers. I think about the work of Homeboy Industries, or
somebody like Gregory Boyle who goes in to a gang infested area of LA and sees possibility for
human flourishing that isn't there. I think those are the kinds of imaginative possibilities for
communal flourishing that the framework that you're putting forward, I think, makes possible.
And I wonder how you've seen that play out, maybe in your pastoral ministry and then some of
the work that you're doing.
Tom Nelson 22:18
Yeah, that's a great question. I'll just give you an example of a former CEO, and it doesn't have
to be a CEO. It could be a barista. So I'm just saying we have lots of those kind of folks in the
church I serve, but his name is Rod, and Rod came into our congregation and began to
understand the biblical story that we teach. We're a church for Monday, and is he wanted to
understand how his faith really speaks into his life, his workplace, and his experience. And so
he began to wrestle deeply with the reality of payday loans in our city. This is a classic
example. And so he had a lot of expertise, a lot of connections around the city because of his
position, and began to really creatively think how he could make a difference there. And he
has, because the poor, marginalized need liquidity, they just get, right, to keep the payday loan
industry you have this high rate of return. Anyway, there's all kinds of economic justifications,
but he's really done something about it by creating a new path forward that allows liquidity
with much lower interest rates and much less of a predatory approach.
Tom Nelson 23:20
And I'm just saying that's one example, but it was the biblical story and his faith that moved
him, not only from compassion to capacity. So this is what I've tried to communicate from Luke 10
in a book called "The Economics to Neighborly Love." And we can chat a bit about that, but I
think one of the core things that brings us together as Christians, of all frameworks, is the great
commandment. And Rabbi Jesus frames the great commandment of Luke 10 in response, if you
remember, in response to, how do I inherit eternal life? What does it mean to love my
neighbor? And so Jesus yelled the story that it's one of the most famous stories in response to,
"who is my neighbor?" What we often miss is Jesus does not only describe who my neighbor is,
which is anyone, right? It changes the idea of family, someone in need, but what does
neighborly love require?
Tom Nelson 24:09
And that's what we miss, and what you see in that story, most of our listeners know that story,
right, but we know from scholarship, Dr. Bailey has done this really well and others, that
parable makes sense because Jesus was a small business person, a carpenter. It's framed an
economic framework. When you look at it, it's a picture of economic injustice with economic
generosity. That's what contrasts that story. So simply to say that, again, I've written much
more on this, but like how we understand loving our neighbor, Jesus profoundly changes. And at
the heart of that, you guys know, you're great guys, at the heart of that is this very intense
word about compassion. They're a good samaritan, call them good. The Samaritan is most
likely a business person going down to Jericho. He wasn't a clergy person. Jericho was a very,
very important trade center. He's probably on a business trip. We're almost certain of that.
We're at least confident in the story. H e's not a clergy, and he sees the Jewish person, a Jewish
person that was beaten and left dead and robbed by the road.
Tom Nelson 25:10
So all that point is that story, Jesus says the one who really is the neighbor is one who
expresses compassion. That's literally a visceral look, seeing someone else's family member,
who's the other. But we often miss is not only does this good samaritan have compassion, he
has capacity. He not only cares for the immediate needs, he takes this guy to an inn, puts down
his credit card, and covers all his expenses, right? So we often miss in that story, that Jesus is
saying neighborly love requires not just compassion, but capacity.
Tom Nelson 25:45
So it was his economic life, his diligent work and labor that allowed him, this Good Samaritan,
to really, truly love a neighbor in need in tangible ways. Because you know, if you have
compassion without capacity, it's frustration. If you have capacity without compassion, it's
alienation. But if you have both, you have true love of neighbor. So I'm just saying that even
that story helps us guys bridge our personal faith with our neighbor and and the economic
implications and capacity is an important part of that.
Eddie Rester 26:17
And when you're thinking about becoming a church for Monday, that's when the work, I think,
of the church on Sunday, when you're thinking on a Monday basis, it changes the work for the
community we gather with on Sunday, because we have to be a community on Sunday that
releases people.
Tom Nelson 26:39
Yes.
Eddie Rester 26:40
And prepares them, that helps them think about compassion, but also helps them think about
capacity. And I think that's, you know, it's easy to say,
"Someone should feed them." It's easy to say,
"Someone should deal with predatory lenders in our world."
It's easy to pray against someone or pray for something on Sunday, and we do it every Sunday.
It's a different thing to creatively call out a mindset that says we can take what is, talk about, what can be yes, and so
that we experience what will be.
Tom Nelson 27:19
One day. Yeah.
Eddie Rester 27:21
Will be one day fully, but begin to taste it and to see it and just sense it right now. And as we
think about that model, what is, what does that call church on Sunday? And I know church isn't
just... but how does, how do we begin to shape the church that meets on Sunday?
Tom Nelson 27:39
Oh, that's such a great question. Eddie, you guys. I mean, that's the heart of what I'm, in my
small way, trying to shift, because it is a mindset. Or, let's just use word paradigm lightly, at
least a paradigm shift. And from my own experience, I just did not have that when I started
being a pastor. I was much more focused on how well I did on Sunday and the scorecard was
primarily Sunday. And again, as pastors, those of you who are pastors and are listening, that's
important, or church leaders. Doing the gathered worship space is really important. I'm not
minimizing that, but what I didn't see 30 years ago was the primary focus of my calling was to
equip God's people for their Monday world, their callings. And that not only shaped how I
understood my calling, but how I equipped them for their Monday. My scorecard was how well I
did on Sunday, rather than how God's people did on Monday.
Tom Nelson 28:29
So this mindset has to be driven by theology, a rich biblical theology that brings both truth and
grace and compassion to people's Monday world. So what I just want to suggest to you guys,
and my own experience is that that mindset of becoming a church for Monday, thinking
through how our Sunday changes when Monday's in mind, is profound in terms of liturgy,
pastoral prayers. We can talk about the liturgical change, the message change, the
illustrations, the prayers. It does impact how you do Sunday. But let me just simply say the
Sunday to Monday gap is what many researchers, Dr David Miller, that used to be at Yale, he's
at Princeton now, has coined this dangerous dichotomy in the American church as the Sunday
to Monday gap. Maybe you've heard of that, but it is perilous for at least five reasons. Can I
mention them really briefly?
Eddie Rester 29:22
Oh yes, 100 percent.
Tom Nelson 29:23
I'm just saying the mindset is important, guys. I'm getting a little animated here. And if you're a
church leader, lay leader or pastor, how you teach, how you equip your people, how you help
prepare them for Monday, is huge for all of us. So I hope this really resonates. But if we have a
Sunday to Monday gap. Really just think of the Christian faith, it's primarily what we do on
Sunday, not to minimize that, and not profoundly shaping and forming and guiding my Monday
world, my callings and relationships and my workplace. Workplace is really important, paid and
unpaid, because it's a primary place we spend our life.
Tom Nelson 29:57
But five things are at stake. If I have a Sunday to Monday gap, then I think my primary place of
worship is Sunday, not Monday. And I want to challenge us that our primary place of God
earning worship is our Monday world. Secondly, our Monday world, whatever that is, whatever
that calling is, it's also our primary place of spiritual formation. It's also the primary place of
gospel possi This is where we incarnate the gospel in our workplaces, and how we live, right,
how we love others, how we work, how we serve. But it's also fourth, our Monday place is a
place of gospel proclamation. We're called to be witnesses, both in deed and word, to our
neighbors, to our colleagues, and many of my parishioners have more conversation with their
colleagues in India on a Monday than you do across the street. That's the world we live in.Eddie Rester 30:43
I think, as you think through, back through church history, we talked to a guy named Kavin
Rowe who's at Duke, before, wrote "Christianity's Surprise," one of the best books I've read in
years, and the idea that the early church sent out people who surprised the world with grace
and love and hope, and if our primary place of doing God's work is on Sunday morning, then for
a world that's given up on the church for a lot of good reasons...
Tom Nelson 30:43
And then lastly, my Monday is the primary place I love my neighbor. I mean, in serving the
common good, it's not just taking them soup when they're sick across the street, and that's
awesome. But our paid, unpaid workers, are our primary way we love our neighbor. And I often
say the greatest workers are the greatest neighbors. So I'm just saying, we, all of us, and we're
trying to do this with Made to Flourish through a large pastor's network and churches. I
encourage people not to add more to their plate, but to say, are you really equipping the
people God has given you in the flock to live their Christian life fully on their Monday world?
And that's what I think we need to move toward.
Tom Nelson 31:54
Indeed.
Eddie Rester 31:55
There's a lot of good reasons they've given up on church.
Tom Nelson 31:58
That's just right, Eddie.
Eddie Rester 31:59
Then they will never have an opportunity to encounter the gospel in life.
Tom Nelson 32:06
Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 32:07
So there's some there's some parallels between what Kavin Rowe says and the framework that
you offer. One of the things he says is that they're really kind of four key, interrelated themes
that the early church espoused. One was a new vision of what it means to be human in light of
Christ.
Tom Nelson 32:25
Indeed.
Chris McAlilly 32:26
Christ being the true human and kind of the expression of what it means to be of true
humanity; trust in the power of God by the Holy Spirit to form Christians, to empower and
sustain Christian witness; a powerful narrative, a story of everything from creation to new
creation; and then a commitment--and this is where I think it dovetails--is a commitment,
empowered by God, to cultivating new and renewed institutions that bear witness to this new
vision of what it means to be human.
Chris McAlilly 32:55
You have to have institutions, like hospitals.
Tom Nelson 32:58
I can tell you love that book. I'd love to read it.
Chris McAlilly 32:59
What's that? Yeah, it's a great book. And you guys...
Eddie Rester 33:02
It's only about this, this thick.
Chris McAlilly 33:04
Yeah. Because if you haven't... So St Jude is in our backyard. It's just up in Memphis. And it's a
great example of a thriving institution with an incredible culture that's rooted in the story, I
mean, ultimately, of the gospel, caring particularly for the most vulnerable among us, the
widows, the orphans, those who are poor and giving them an opportunity to receive great
health care. One of the things I learned about St Jude when I had a friend of mine whose
daughter had cancer at 18 months old is that you can't pay for health care there. You can pay
for someone else's health care, which is an incredible model of generosity and abundance
and...
Eddie Rester 33:51
And flourishing.
Chris McAlilly 33:52
Yeah. And ultimately, it's saying that the children in our midst, they're experiencing the healing
power of Jesus Christ, and becoming the people that God desires and intends them to be is
more important than the bills that their family would incur. And you know, one of... The extent
to which this is embedded in the culture of the institution, is such that not everyone who comes
to St Jude will live. You know, there are kids that don't make it. And there was a story from
about a decade ago of a family, and I can't remember where they were from in Central
America, but their daughter did not survive, came to St Jude and didn't survive. And there was
another family that ultimately paid the cost and allowed for the accompaniment of the body to
return back home and for a proper burial to be made for this daughter.
Tom Nelson 34:50
Sounds like Luke 10.
Chris McAlilly 34:54
Yeah, and so much of it... I mean, I think the fact that St Jude is in the world deepens the
credibility of a witness. And, you know, it's the built environment and the institutions that are
led by people who kind of take this mindset from Sunday into Monday, that...
Tom Nelson 35:10
It's beautiful.
Chris McAlilly 35:10
Yeah, it's just some powerful example. Anyway, it dovetails very nicely with what I hear you
saying.
Tom Nelson 35:17
I love that.
Eddie Rester 35:18
I'm going back into the local church. In fact, by the time this comes out, I may be back in the
local church after almost a year and a half serving an organization that was equipping the local
church, but heading back to local church. And so I'm fascinated right now by this idea of
making sure that we are closing that gap between Sunday and Monday and in creating this
body that is so flourishing that just overflows through the people who encounter it. And you
talked about how it changed the liturgy and the prayers and the things, can you give me an
example? Give us your example of some of the ways that maybe Sunday was different because
the focus was turned to Monday.
Tom Nelson 35:58
Sure. So it depends on your ecclesial traditional, of course, and how you have to adapt that
appropriately. But several things changed when we began to shift. This is 25, almost 30 years
ago. One, our language changed when we preached and communicated up front. Like, there
are language, at least in my tradition, that sometimes we carry through that aren't really
integral language. So for example, we never use the word "full time Christian work."
Maybe you don't do that in your context or ministry. We seldom used that because most people who hear
that think of just pastors and missionaries. So language itself, at least, we're more sensitive to
language that reinforces what we believe, rather than impoverished language. We'll seldom use "sacred secular."
Other kinds of things that we feel are... There are better words for that. So the
words we use, illustrations we use in sermons, have a deep connection of where people are on
their Monday world. We look for that. Workplace, wide ranges of callings, paid and unpaid, stay
at home, spouse, retirees, wherever they are in the world. We think very carefully about that.
Tom Nelson 37:11
We also have a thing, not every Sunday, but we call them "this time tomorrows."
So you imagine this is really, a lot of churches now are doing this around the country. It's a three-
minute vocational testimony of the laity. The clergy invites someone up they already know, and
they ask three questions. The questions, after you introduce them, are just like,
"Tell me where has God called you this time tomorrow?"
So it's a picture of where God specifically has called them in their Monday world.
Tom Nelson 37:37
Secondly is, "what are the joys that you experienced as a follower of Jesus in your Monday
calling?" Then again, that could be someone stay at home changing diapers or changing a
company, right? I mean, so or a student. We just had a student last week at one of our
campuses talk about what it was like for him on Monday. And then third,
"what are the challenges you face in a broken world as a follower of Jesus in your Monday calling?" Because
there's both, right? There's the good, the hard, the ugly. And then we say, how can we pray for
you?
Tom Nelson 38:07
I have to tell you just personally, I'm a decent preacher. I'm not the greatest in the world, but
like when we have this time tomorrow, nobody's asleep. Everybody's locked on to that
moment, because we're talking to people's worlds. They understand that. We celebrate that.
We commission them. We communicate. We don't in any way minimize missionaries or pastors
or 501(c)(3) workers. We just elevate the rest. So I'm just saying there are things we do, a
commissioning, benedictions. Like the benediction we'll often use is we'll say something like,
whether it's out of Psalm 90. I'm being really practical about Psalm 90:17, is the great end of
Psalms. Like,
"Lord, confirm the work of our hands. Yes, confirm the work of our hands."
Tom Nelson 38:44
Or we may say something like, you know,
"We have been delighting in the presence of God and
each other as the gathered church. Now God is calling us to be the scattered church, to go on
mission with him, in his presence, for his purposes in our Monday worlds."
We do this across our campuses, but those are things that we've adapted to try to be more of a church for
Monday. And let me just say, as you're going back into church, Eddie, specifically, we're talking
about the early church, and I want to commend you another really brilliant book by a
Mennonite scholar called Alan Kreider. It's called "The Patient Ferment of the Early Church,"
and he documents how the early church profoundly changed the world through the
marketplace. You remember Lydia, I mean the natural movements of the economy and the
marketplace.
Tom Nelson 39:28
So let me just challenge you with a thought as you go back or your listeners. When we look at
the first, second or third century the church, we have to realize that it was uniquely set up.
Rabbi Paul talks about the fullness of time God sent forth his Son, in Galatians. But that's not a
prophetic timeline or historical timeline. That's a geopolitical context. So we know in the first
and second, third century, with the Pax Romana, and yes, the peace of Rome was brutal and
coercive. I'm not minimizing that part, but it allowed some stability for the gospel to go forth to
the world from warring tribes. And you know, the Romans had this massive road building
project. You still can walk on those roads.
Eddie Rester 40:08
Yeah, they're still there.
Tom Nelson 40:08
Yeah. The gospel was taken by these roads. And then they also had the lingua franca of the day
that allowed communication, which was Koine Greek. Well, think about as we go in the 21st
century. Think of the parallel. So for pastors or church leaders not to equip their people to help
them think creatively and imaginatively for being on mission on Monday is to miss the open
door of the 21st century.
Tom Nelson 40:31
Think about today with me, just for a moment, like you're going back or whoever's listening,
like never before in the world ever has the world been more connected through the internet,
through global communication and the global economy. I'm not saying that's all perfect, but I
mean, it's all connected. We have the lingua franca. The day I was in England, not too long ago,
96 leaders from 96 nations. You guys were there. We all spoke in English. Okay? It was a
common language. We have the common currency, which is still the dollar. So I'm saying
there's a unique coming together of the world in the marketplace on Monday, and if we don't
help our people and our mission as a local church, focus significantly, we're missing it.
Chris McAlilly 41:19
Yeah, and it's, yeah, it's powerful. And I think...
Tom Nelson 41:22
I just think that's about this...
Eddie Rester 41:25
I'm scratching notes down as fast as I can take them.
Chris McAlilly 41:27
Yeah.
Tom Nelson 41:27
But I mean, we really believe that. I mean, that's not the only mission, but if we miss it, we're
really missing the open door opportunity for the gospel and for the church today. At least in the
westerner world.
Chris McAlilly 41:37
Ultimately, people's... You know, I think it's not just breaking down this distinction between the
secular and the sacred or between the private and the public as it relates to faith. I think this is
a huge problem. I was talking to a friend of mine that comes out of the Black church and she
was just telling me, this is not something that we deal with, this distinction, you know, because
it's a different kind of imagination. And I was like, this is just, you know, what happens in the
white church, whether it's the evangelical church or the mainline church, is that distinction gets
made between public and private, and then, you know, we do have this robust understanding
of faith. Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior. I'll go to heaven when I die. And then people just
do whatever they want on Monday, you know, and through the week.
Tom Nelson 42:24
That's not exactly integral in my mind. I mean, I'm not minimizing the importance of
forgiveness our future state, but, but that's, I think, a shrunken understanding of the Gospel.
Chris McAlilly 42:34
there's just an opportunity to live a much more interesting and ultimately, hopefully surprising
faith, you know. And so sometimes you know, one of the things, again, coming back to Kavin
Rowe, the sense that, you know, Christianity is all around us, and yet we don't, in some ways,
we don't even know what it really is. And I think that there's a power here, not only to
understand is the title of of the book that you have coming out,
'Why Your Work Matters." There is an opportunity to both understand that for yourself,
and if you're a church leader or a pastor, for those in your congregation. I also think there's
an opportunity for us to just rediscover what the faith really is. You know, what it was, what it ought to be,
and what it can and will be in the fullness of God's work with us.
Chris McAlilly 43:23
This has been such a great conversation. We could go on and on and on. I do wonder. One of
the things I wanted to ask you is, you know, at the very beginning of this book, you attribute it,
or you offer it to Dallas Willard, "whose brilliant mind, kind heart, warm friendship and wise
mentoring has been a treasured gift of grace" in your life and work. I wondered. I just wanted
Dallas Willard keeps showing up in various contexts as one of those saints and kind of mentors
of a previous generation. I thought. I wondered if you know, normally you would kind of start
with that attribution. I wondered if we might kind of end coming back around to his witness.
Why is he so powerful as kind of an exemplar of this for you?
Tom Nelson 44:11
Well, again, I wanted to dedicate this work to Dallas. I had the great privilege of studying under
him some, but also having time with him over the years. And it's the greatest gift of my life, in
terms of a person who is truly from an interdisciplinary standpoint, absolutely brilliant. He was
also a beautiful human being and a close and intimate follower of Jesus. That combination is
extraordinary. I think, you know, again, I've said this the last, I don't know how many years
since he's been gone, but I do believe that he is the CS Lewis of our time in terms of his
influence. You know, he's trained as a philosopher, remarkable mind and heart. And I think that
he really helped me frame some things that have helped me live a more integral Christian faith
in my own life, but also in the world.
Tom Nelson 45:00
So, yeah, I'm very indebted to Dallas. He was very kind. Spent time, two or three times in
Georgetown home, and other places where I had time with him. I wish I could have had more.
I'm grateful for what I had. But, yeah, I think his writings, but his life. You know, I gotta just stop
here. But like, his writings are profound. They're really helpful in bringing more integral framing
for the Christian faith in the world. I believe that deeply. But he was also the real deal. Can I say
that? And that's that, yeah, homespun, but he was the real deal. And he lived what he
preached and preached what he lived. And I'm so grateful that I had the time I did with him.
Eddie Rester 45:43
I just started reading the book "The Scandal of the Kingdom," published after his death. It's just
just a great reflection of the power of the kingdom that we're a part of, not just when we gather
on Sunday, but when we live in the world on Monday. And I think as now that you say that I
didn't realize I can feel some of his work about kingdom in your passion for how the work of the
church matters and how we release people.
Tom Nelson 46:13
Yeah, one of the things I'd say simply, is that Dallas Willard, early on, rescued my intellectual
and spiritual life around a couple really key ideas. You know, a couple key ideas can transform
your life, I mean and truly. And one of them was I had a heart, a strong commitment to truth, to
teach truth, to live into it, to believe in it. And my understanding of discipleship was primarily
around Jesus' precepts, and not his practices or his pedagogy. I'll use three P's. And Dallas
helped me begin to see all three of those as integral to be an apprentice of Jesus. That, and the
other thing I would say is, I mean, almost, he was, when you were with him, and just flowing
out him was incredible profundity. I mean, just and try to be it just flowed from him.
Tom Nelson 47:03
But one of the things he also he said that changed my framework. He said grace is always
opposed to merit, but not effort. And his reframing of grace is extremely important that none of
us can have any meritorious earning. But that doesn't mean we don't have a part that we play
in becoming like Christ in terms of our own effort. And those things are the kind of things that
just transformed my life, truly.
Chris McAlilly 47:27
Yeah, just so, you know, I think one of the things... If you're in a tradition where you're
struggling to see hope, you know for yourself, or for your tradition, or for the church in the
Western world, or wherever it is that you kind of run, bump up against a sense of despair. What
I always find is that finding a saint, someone, one thinker, somebody from Christian history,
either more contemporary in, you know, in the 20th century, or someone from back in the
tradition, one saint, and going deeply with that particular individual's body of work can be
something that can rehabilitate my hope. And that was the case, has been the case for me and
many, many others with Dallas Willard's work.
Tom Nelson 48:16
Wonderful.
Chris McAlilly 48:17
And I would just say, that I see that in in your work as well, Tom. And I'm not just saying you
and your writing, but the institutions and the the opportunities that you're creating and your
team is creating to offer people a different kind of way of thinking about what faith could be for
their lives. So I wanted to just say thank you for that. Thank you for doing that for folks across
the country. Thank you for doing that with us today in this conversation. We're so grateful for
your time.
Tom Nelson 48:48
I wish we could have coffee. I would love to learn more from you guys.
Eddie Rester 48:51
I know.
Tom Nelson 48:51
I mean, it's been a delightful new friendship. Thank you for that gift.
Eddie Rester 48:54
Come to Dallas. Come to Oxford. We'll meet you wherever. The book is "Why Your Work
Matters," and so pick that up and find that Monday of faith. Thank you, Tom for your time today.
Tom Nelson 49:07
Eddie and Christopher, thank you.
Eddie Rester 49:09
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like,
subscribe, or leave a review.
Chris McAlilly 49:17
If you would like to support this work financially, or if you have an idea for a future guest, you
can go to theweightpodcast.com [END OUTRO].