“Hopeful Imagination” with Greg Jones

Show Notes:

Chris and Eddie are joined by previous guest Greg Jones for a spirited conversation about leaning into hopeful imagination: looking for places where the Holy Spirit is at work and where we can see a future that’s different from the past and the present. What does it mean to be formed in God’s imagination? How can we use that formation to find security in a fractured, uncertain world? How can we bring resurrection hope--the surety of a risen Christ to heal the world--to our institutions, our communities, and our daily lives?

Greg is the President of Belmont University as well as the former Dean of Duke Divinity School and the author of several books, including Navigating the Future (co-authored with Andrew P. Hogue), Christian Social Innovation, and Thriving Communities (co-authored with Kavin Rowe). His hope for his time at Belmont is to make it a leading Christ-centered university in the world, radically championing the pursuit of life abundant for all people. 

Resources:

Listen to Greg’s previous episode on The Weight here

Learn more about his books and buy them online here

Learn more about Dr. Jones here.

Transcript:

Eddie Rester 00:00

I'm Eddie Rester.

Chris McAlilly 00:01

I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight. Today we're talking to Dr. Greg Jones. He's the 12th

president of Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee, and he's a return guest on the

podcast, and we're talking about resurrection hope and imagination for leading Christ centered

institutions.

Eddie Rester 00:21

What I love about Greg is he is excited and hopeful and thoughtful. He's a man who sees the

big picture, not just what's happening in the moment or just a few weeks, months or years

down the road, but his his life is rooted in the story of Jesus and how that is moving through

time. And so it's always great to talk with him. He just one of the leaders I like to have in my

ear from time to time.

Chris McAlilly 00:51

Yeah, we're gonna be releasing this episode after Easter, and this is a really interesting

conversation. I think, if you want to live with Easter hope within the context of your day-to-day

life, if you're leading in a family or in a business or in a church or in any setting you need

examples or models of what that really looks like on the ground. And Greg, for me, has been

one of those leaders and mentors along the way that I have continually gone back to and

learned from, and it continues today.

Chris McAlilly 01:29

It's just great to hear him and to be in conversation with him, to hear how he's viewing the

cultural moment. There's so much that's destabilizing, and there's a lot of volatility. And you

know, anyone that's leading in any context feels that vulnerability. He talks about how he's

navigating it and weathering it, and then also how he's helping to stabilize things for his for his

university.

Eddie Rester 01:51

He talks about creating culture there at Belmont, and the things that they've done to create

tangible ways that people can latch on to the culture. And that was one of my favorite parts of

the conversation. He talks about the wider culture that we're working in, and what's really

driving our cultural moment right now. And that was something I really appreciated. Anyway,

just a lot in this conversation I think you're going to enjoy and like. And so share it with a

leader, share it with a pastor. Really give it to folks who I think it can be a gift for.

Chris McAlilly 02:26

[INTRO] Leadership today demands more than technical expertise. It requires deep wisdom to

navigate the complexity of a turbulent world, courage to reimagine broken systems, and

unwarranted hope to inspire durable change.

Eddie Rester 02:44

As Christ-centered leaders in churches, nonprofits, the academy, and the marketplace, we all

carry the weight of cultivating communities that reflect God's kingdom in a fragmented world.

Chris McAlilly 02:55

But this weight wasn't meant to be carried alone. The Christian tradition offers us centuries of

wisdom, if we have the humility to listen and learn from diverse voices.

Eddie Rester 03:05

That's why The Weight exists, to create space for the conversations that challenge our

assumptions, deepen our thinking, and renew our spiritual imagination.

Chris McAlilly 03:15

Faithful leadership in our time requires both conviction and curiosity, rootedness in tradition,

and responsiveness to a changing world.

Eddie Rester 03:23

So whether you're leading a congregation, raising a family, teaching students, running a

nonprofit, or bringing faith into your business, join us as we explore the depth and richness of

Christ-centered leadership today. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]

Chris McAlilly 03:39

We're here today with the Reverend Dr. Greg Jones, who is the president Belmont University.

Greg, thanks for coming back on the podcast.

Greg Jones 03:47

Delighted to see you both. Thanks for the invitation.

Chris McAlilly 03:49

So good to be with you. We had you on a couple years ago, and you're continuing on in your

work there in Nashville. How are you doing? What does a week look like for you right now in the

work that you're doing? What do you have coming up in the next... I guess you guys are about

to end the semester here in another year?

Greg Jones 04:12

Yeah. Well, no week, no two weeks are the same. So it's that's part of the dynamic of being, I

think, any institutional leader in this environment, especially, but particularly at a university

where we have 12 colleges that cover a lot of different disciplines and vocations, and in a really

dynamic city and region like Nashville and middle Tennessee. So there's a lot of students, and

we're coming up on end of year activities and honors and awards and graduation, which is

always a thrill, but lots of other things happening on campus and in Nashville.

Greg Jones 04:51

Probably my most exciting thing in the last several months is we announced a partnership with

Dolly Parton and that includes being the host for the world premiere of her musical Dolly, an

original musical, as well as what we're calling Dolly U at Belmont, so students taking classes,

working on projects related to the musical, but also her broader work as an entrepreneur, and

that's been pretty exciting. I now learned the meaning of the word invisible. It's when you're

standing on stage next to Dolly Parton. No one in the world wants to know who you are when

you're standing next to her.

Eddie Rester 05:28

So Dolly did an event in Oxford a couple years ago, and Audra and I got to go and got to do the

picture beforehand with her, and as the line worked, I was standing beside Dolly. So I'm

standing there beside Dolly Parton, and suddenly I get hip checked by my wife. And so if you

look at the picture, I'm standing behind Dolly Parton, and Audra is standing beside Dolly Parton.

Chris McAlilly 05:50

That's great. That's so funny. A couple years ago, when we were in conversation about social

entrepreneurship and resurrection hope, one of the things that we talked about is Christianity's

surprise, the surprising nature of the Gospel story. We're recording this on Thursday before

Easter, and so I've been thinking a lot about these themes of what it means to take the church

through, to remember this original surprise of the resurrection. As you're thinking about your

role, I wonder, where have you seen God as the subject of active verbs? Where have you seen

Christianity's surprise kind of being renewed there in your work?

Greg Jones 06:34

Great question. Well, one of the things we've been focused on the last few years has been that

sense of Easter hope or resurrection hope. And we actually relocated a Frederick Hart sculpture

that was in our library called "Christ Rising." It's a beautiful sculpture of Christ with his arms

uplifted and he's looking up. And we relocated that to the geographic center of the campus,

because we really wanted that to be both a symbol and a framework for the work we wanted to

be doing.

Greg Jones 07:11

And what we found, I think, is by really leaning into that notion of Easter hope or resurrection

hope, by focusing on what we're for, it's a way of bringing people together in a time where in

the broader churches, in the broader culture, there's a lot of driving apart and division and

polarization and chaos. And really kind of centering in on what we share. So that last summer,

we were doubling down on what we think about Christ-centered character formation. And we

looked at Third John 1:2, a verse that is framed as a prayer: "I pray that you might have health

and that your soul might thrive."

Chris McAlilly 07:57

I think of, you know, your work kind of spans kind of high level engagement around topics like

forgiveness, for instance, which is when you're speaking in a, you know, a very theological,

philosophical register. And then I think about this language of being an institutional leader, of

trying to create a culture that is, how do you say it? It's like...

Greg Jones 07:57

And so we looked at that, what would it mean for a soul to thrive? And we developed a

language, an acronym for SOUL: Seeking excellence with humility, Offering gratitude with joy

Unleashing hospitality with love, Living the dream together with hope, undergirded by wisdom,

and aiming at wisdom. And that has been probably the most powerful sign of resurrection hope

I've seen in our work. Because students have said,"I want to learn more about that."

Faculty have been saying, "How can I incorporate those themes into classes?" And it's just had this

incredibly generative sense of people wanting to find something to be for, rather than

something that they're against.

Eddie Rester 09:12

Kind of a movement, or...

Chris McAlilly 09:13

Yeah, it's more than a movement. It's language that can carry and can be shared. It's simple

enough, but robust enough that it really can form folks who are coming into the university as

freshmen all the way up to some of the folks who are some of your senior leaders in your

executive team, and all the way across. How do you think about shaping and forming these

frameworks so that they really can be embedded and they can kind of travel across the culture

of the institution?

Greg Jones 09:41

Yeah, thanks. It's a great question. You know, I think a lot about Peter Drucker's famous line

that culture eats strategy for breakfast. And so what you create as a culture is at least as

important as whatever you say, and it's embedded and just becomes part of the habits and the

frameworks and the language that people use. So, you know, one of the fun things that we've

done is actually to create what we're calling virtuwearable. So the SOUL framework, you know,

it fits on the back of your phone to hold cards or things you can, a magnet you can put on the

refrigerator, but it's really trying to find those sticky frameworks that people can, you know,

can talk about.

Greg Jones 10:27

And so, you know, seeking excellence with humility, which is the S in the SOUL framework

that's become huge for our student athletes and our coaches are talking with kids about

because, you know, you don't want to say, "Don't seek excellence," but it's not all about you.

So how do you deal with performance anxiety? And so it's really important to find those

frameworks and build them into the culture and infuse it across and to do it in ways that can be

accessed by people at one level, and then you can go deeper.

Greg Jones 10:59

So the technical term is semantic depth, that a word can go deeper. And I think that that's

where, yeah, you can think about it at one level, just on, okay, I need to be humble and more

oriented toward the team. Or you can spend a lot of time going really deep into how is humility

related to ambition in Philippians 2 or, you know, and go much deeper into that. So it's trying to

find that way to be able to both have access points and then capacity to go deep.

Chris McAlilly 11:31

So Eddie and I are at different points in our organizations. I'm in some ways building upon

frameworks and, you know, with semantic depth that Eddie created, and that I've kind of tried

to continue, and then Eddie starting in a new place, and kind of going to be building on the

work of another leader in another place and trying to deepen it. What advice would you give to

both of us as we're thinking about doing this in the context we're working and others who are

trying to lead Christ-centered institutions across the country?

Greg Jones 12:02

Well, those are profound questions to think about the different settings. And I say you always

want, this is part of my phrase, "traditioned innovation." You always want to find touch points

that are resonant in the particularity of a place. And you know, every local congregation has its

own history, and there are things that resonate because of that, or there's a charism that some

congregations are known for their music, or they're known for their hospitality or their mission

work in the community. And so finding those touch points where people can say, "Oh yes, this

is part of who we are, and we want to lean into that." And then find the ways that it also

challenges, where there may be a growing edge, where it's actually not been as well known.

Greg Jones 12:50

So Belmont's long been known as a pretty hopeful place, and it's been known as really

hospitable place. I think that's, you know, those are touch points that we can draw on. When I

came here, I wanted to listen and find out, what are people... What have kept people here?

What do they think is part of the DNA? And then saying, Okay, now, how do we connect that to

a different sense of what would it mean to be hospitable in a broader context? Or how do we

need to connect that to a spirit of joy? Or how does that relate to wisdom?

Greg Jones 13:25

So you're both drawing on what's long been character of the place. So for Eddie, you know,

you're going into a place where you got to spend a lot of time listening and learning, and there

will be themes that begin to emerge, and then you find a way, okay, how do I take that and

perhaps develop it in a new key? And Chris, for you, it's, how do I go deeper and make sure it

stays fresh and the people are being challenged with things that they may have come to take

for granted?

Greg Jones 13:52

So when I got to Belmont, one of the things was, I said, I want us to go much deeper on

character formation. And the faculty said, oh, we've always cared about character, and that

meant that they didn't think they needed to go deeper, because they thought they'd already

kind of solved for it.

Eddie Rester 14:06

Yeah.

Greg Jones 14:06

And now we're discovering that people are going, oh, what you're talking about is somewhat

different than what we were used to. And it's become really interesting to see excitement, and

sometimes it comes in surprising places. And so you don't want to just look for it in the old

familiar places, but look for the places where people are saying, oh, I want to work together. So

I convened a reading group faculty from all of our colleges, and we were reading on Christ-

centered character formation. And the greatest joy I had was in watching a business law

professor connecting with a professor of costume design, connecting with a professor of

theology, around an idea of what they saw at the intersections of a particular angle into

forming people with character.

Eddie Rester 14:58

Let me shift gears, just a little bit, because as we talk about forming a culture inside an

organization, the reality is we're also forming that culture inside an organization that lives in a

larger culture. So as you think about the culture we're in right now, and you talked a little bit

about it earlier, when you talked about how divisive things are we living in this very divisive

moment, are there other cultural things we need to be reading or thinking about, or

opportunities or pressures that Christian leaders need to be paying attention to?

Greg Jones 15:33

Oh, yeah, let me count the ways. I mean, in some ways, somebody said I gave a talk this

morning about where I think we are at Belmont as we're looking toward the end of the year and

toward next year. And I listed a variety of what I described as the vulnerabilities because of the

volatile time we're in. And so then one of the questions that came to me at the end was, what's

the biggest vulnerability? And I actually paused and I said, I think it's actually the mix of

vulnerabilities. It's the mix that's there that it's not just one thing to highlight. So it's not just

divisiveness. It's coming from so many different angles.

Greg Jones 16:13

The divisiveness is itself a symptom of anxiety about the future. It's also an anxiety about the

pace of change. It's an anxiety about the economy. It's an anxiety about whether my children

are going to grow up well. It's an anxiety about social media. And so I think what's really crucial

for Christian leaders is to really keep a very clear North Star and to really know what matters

and how to stay focused on what matters. And it is about nurturing that culture. I don't think... I

think there's... When people are anxious, you tend to want to look for easy answers or just

answers, because people are feeling unsure, and it's better if you just tell them an answer.

Whether it's right or wrong, just give them an answer, rather than creating a holding

environment where we try to ask better and deeper questions.

Greg Jones 17:14

And what I'm finding is that what Christian leaders do best is to create holding environments

that bring people together, that can help to cultivate better questions, deeper understandings

and meaningful disagreements, but the disagreement is about well framed questions.

Eddie Rester 17:32

And not the other, not othering the people in the room.

Greg Jones 17:37

That's right.

Eddie Rester 17:37

Yeah. And one of the things I find that emerges when you begin to create those those holding

spaces for people to have those kind of interactions and conversations and build those kind of

relationships, is that typically, imagination begins to grow. The potential for imagination begins

to emerge. And so how do you define imagination well? As you think about organizations and

what you've been able to do at Belmont in what's a relatively short amount of time, how do you

define and understand hopeful and helpful imagination?

Greg Jones 18:15

Yeah, that's a great point. And I've been saying, really going back to COVID, that I think our

culture suffers from an imagination deficit disorder, that we've lost the capacity to imagine a

future different from the present, much less the past. And, you know, there's a poignant

passage in a book. I've often told the story about the 12 spies in Numbers 13 and 14. And, you

know, I talk about it as the loss of a mission, and so they want to go back to Egypt. And the

back to Egypt is what the Israelites wanted. And my dad used to say that every congregation

he ever served had a back to Egypt committee in it. You know, people see the future where

God was calling them, and then they wanted to go back to Egypt.

Greg Jones 18:59

But a woman named Avivah Zornberg in her commentary on Numbers, the book is called "Bewilderments,"

and she says when the Israelites wanted to go back to Egypt, she said they

suffered a death worse than physical death. It was the death of their imagination. And I just had

to put the book down, because that was one of those moments where you think, I can't keep

reading until I reflect on and try to absorb that: a death, worse than physical death, the death

of their imagination. So the way I would say what imagination is, it's not fantasy, but it's about

aligning a hopeful future to what we see God doing and God's work in the world. And so it

always is going to stretch us and challenge us, and to some extent, disorient us, which is what

led the the Israelites to say that imagination is too big to think of a land flowing with milk and

honey. They are creatures up ahead. They look like giants, and we're grasshoppers. So when I

think of a hopeful imagination, it's aligning what I see to what God sees. And so it really is

shaped by a sense that the risen Christ is let loose, the Holy Spirit is at work. And the challenge

is, can I bring myself to that imagination.

Greg Jones 20:23

So that, you know, to go back to Christianity's surprise, what we talked about a couple years

ago, we ought to be the surprising people who are doing things, where people go, "What? That

doesn't make sense. " Well, it's because we're trying to see where God is. We're trying to keep

up with God, not what we're controlling. So when people see the SOUL framework, and they see

students walking around wanting to talk about gratitude and joy, aren't they supposed to be

grumpy and aren't they supposed to be upset with others? That's where the imagination... But

it's always imagination. What distinguishes it from fantasy is it's something that's going to be

lived and embodied and learned.

Eddie Rester 21:07

So glad you brought up the scriptural image there, because one of the things I find as I read

scriptures over and over, that's the tension often in scripture. Do people have enough

imagination to keep to keep pursuing the work that God is doing, the kingdom that's being

revealed in the world? Because our innate desire is to stay where we are. One of my favorite

moments in the story of Abraham is when he tells God, hey, I've got Ishmael. Isn't Ishmael good

enoug. Can't we? Can't you just use Ishmael instead of having us keep trying to have a baby?

And anyway, thank you for that. I think that's one of the most important words that for me, that

I need over and over.

Chris McAlilly 21:47

Yeah, I do. I, you know, I think if somebody were to, you know, listen to this conversation and

think of it from a cynical or suspicious perspective, what we're talking about is imagination.

We're talking about a SOUL framework. And students walking, talking around, talking about joy

and gratitude. But we're also in a cultural moment where it does feel... I mean, one of the

differences between the last time we talked in now is there it does feel like, I don't know. The

institute, the ecosystem of institutions across American culture, they feel more unstable today

than a couple years ago, in my view.

Chris McAlilly 22:19

And you know, there are a lot of people that are talking about the destabilization of kind of the

post World War Two institutional framework, and that's social, political, economic. You know, all

of the different kind of sectors seem to be feeling that pressure. And, you know, I wonder kind

of, how do you make sense of that? And how do you... What are we to make... How do we

cultivate institutions that practice that kind of resurrection imagination, in a world that does, at

times feel like it's unraveling?

Greg Jones 22:54

That's a, it's a really great question, and point implied in the question. Because I do think, you

know, we go through periods of time that are highly destabilizing. And I do think that probably

the consensus, it may even be pre World War Two, but there was, you know, for a century or

so, or at least 75 or 80 years, there was a set of institutions and assumptions that all seem to

make sense, for a long period of time. Now, I'd actually suggest that what we're experiencing

now is an intensification of something that's been developing for at least a couple decades.

Greg Jones 23:37

What we need to remember is this isn't the first time, and it's not the last time when that

destabilization occurs, and that it can be, you know, like the old Chinese proverb says,

"May you live in interesting times," it is both a crisis and an opportunity, in that I do think that

institutions are more fragile and destabilized across all sectors. Whatever sector you're in,

you're tending to think it's the worst, but it's across all sectors. And the real question is, what

creativity might emerge in the midst of that?

Greg Jones 24:14

And I think that the key to that, to practicing resurrection in a time when it feels like things are

unraveling, is a sense of being present and showing a sign of hope, embodying and manifesting

that sense of hope. And it requires deep formation. Part of the reason why we unveiled the

SOUL framework and have now a formation collaborative is because pretty well across the

board, we've not been paying attention, as Christians, to what it means to be formed in that

imagination and to be reminded of it. Heck, I can throw as good a pity party as Jonah can, you

know, out on the ash heap and grumpy at who God is. And you know, I can lose sight of God.

Greg Jones 24:59

I heard a talk. Scott Hamilton, the former Olympic champion figure skater, gave a talk

yesterday at a keynote for us at Belmont, and he told this story, and it was just absolutely

stunning, all the things he had to overcome, and travails. And the title was "Be Undefeated,"

and he said, you don't ever have to let anything defeat you because of who God is. And then he

turned to the whole audience, he said, "Do you trust God?" And my first thought was, "I don't

know."

Greg Jones 25:30

You know, I mean, so I can... It'd been a frustrating day in some ways. So I was thinking, I'm

gonna be grumpy. But then I had to be reminded that, oh, I actually have been formed in that

story that begins in Genesis one and doesn't end till the end of Revelation. And so the deeper

our formation, personally and institutionally, the more we're able to weather the storms, or to

make sure that things remain knit when other things are unraveling.

Eddie Rester 26:02

You mentioned there institutional formation. As I think about the work the church and a lot of

our listeners are either pastors or church members, church leaders. What does institutional

formation look like? Because I think for so long--you could say, Eddie, you're wrong on that--but

I think for so many decades, we haven't had to really do that, because the institutions worked.

They just worked. They were just set up and they ran and everything was okay. So what does

that mean to you when you think about Belmont, or you think about other institutions, or you

think about the church?

Greg Jones 26:37

Yeah, I think we've taken them for granted for way too long, and so now we're only in the midst

of, in some ways, to mix the metaphor from Chris's point about unraveling. I think of a lot of the

modern world as in a rubble. And I take that image from an essay by Václav Havel, the great

Czech playwright, and then president, talked about that. The real question for us now is, what

does it mean to cultivate institutions in the midst of the rubble? And what's going to rise out of

that? And that requires leadership that we haven't been really forming ourselves and each

other for. And it means paying attention and taking the long view.

Greg Jones 27:26

You know, in the midst of church fights and various things I try to remember, oh yeah, well, you

know, the Trinitarian controversies, roughly, took four centuries to sort through. That's a little

longer than we need to get this resolved by October. And so that level of patience and that

sense of stewardship. When I think about, how do I lead this institution at Belmont, not just for

this fall, but to be sure that it's going to be healthy in 2040 and 2050, taking that long view

leads to a certain measure of patience and stewardship, even while being bold on saying we're

headed in this direction.

Greg Jones 28:14

But it's a way of saying institutions matter and we've taken them for granted, and that's

actually caused the some of the crises that we're dealing with now. We weren't attentive to

what it means to form and sustain them and how they are absolutely essential to the fabric of

communities and our lives. You know, I say a lot that institutions are like offensive linemen in

football. You only notice them when they screw up and a yellow flag is thrown. Except a left

tackle is the second highest paid position in football because they protect the quarterback,

particularly the left tackle protects the quarterbacks blind side. And so if you don't have a

healthy institution, you can have all the dynamic leadership you want, but it's going to be really

vulnerable, particularly on the blind side. And we just haven't paid attention to what kind of

offensive line do you need?

Eddie Rester 29:20

Yeah, just gonna to follow up on that, and I'll turn it over to Chris. I can't remember who wrote

the article. Maybe it was David Brooks. Said that what institutions have given to us at their best

is character formation, whether it was the Rotary or university or church, and in that, character

formation provided guardrails so that when people went too far off either edge, they were

called back or not listened to, really. So it provided this ability for us to function well together,

even in times of disagreement. As we think about our cultural moment and the anxiety that

we're in, I think that, I think there's a lot for us to think about with that just in terms of how we

think forward.

Greg Jones 30:06

I agree. Yuval Levin, actually, I think, originated the distinction. He said, institutions at their

best are molds of character, and we, at most in contemporary American culture, have turned

them into platforms for celebrity.

Eddie Rester 30:21

One of the things that he said, I love that book he wrote, by the way. I was packing earlier

today...

Greg Jones 30:27

"Time to Build."

Eddie Rester 30:27

Yeah, "Time to Build." When he says, institutions remind us what we owe to each other, and

that's powerful to me, because without that, we don't think we owe anybody anything. And that

becomes a place of sheer anger and frustration.

Chris McAlilly 30:42

As we're talking about this I'm just thinking about, you know, Levin, his most recent book is on

the American covenant, so it's basically the breakdown of the Constitution and how it can be

reclaimed or recovered. I think one of the things in that book that I find so striking is it really is

not just... A lot of what I see you doing, Greg, is bringing an eschatological framework, kind of

pulling, you know, giving us a way of thinking about institutional life from the future. Yeah, just

this idea that we're moving towards a future of God's reign that is breaking into the present,

that's kind of bringing... There's pressure from the future that's being placed on the present

because of God's action.

Chris McAlilly 31:27

What I see Levin doing, and others, is really kind of going back into memory and kind of

accessing certain things that in our current cultural moment, for any number of reasons, our

culture, our politics, has just forgotten. And I wonder, you know, how you think about that, like

the connection between memory and hope, the connection between forgetfulness and

stagnation. How do you think about that as a way of kind of... How can memory be a source,

ultimately, I guess, of both personal, individual, and institutional hope?

Greg Jones 32:10

I think it's absolutely crucial, you know. I think of the Jewish tradition Passover, of a child

coming and saying, "How is this night different from all other nights?" It's a way to be re-

membered into a story. I mean, literally, to be re-membered, to be reinitiated into membership

in this story. And I think it's absolutely crucial, and it actually challenges us as Christians to go

back to Genesis 1, not just Genesis 3, you know, where we just kind of assume conflict and sin

and brokenness as the underlying reality, and now, who's going to win? But actually, to go back

to, to re-member God creating, not because God had to, but God doing so out of love. And that

logic of abundance and the outpouring of love, and what that means for an invitation, and how

that shapes.

Greg Jones 33:07

To think about shaping a community or an organization from "we can't, because," is our default

mindset which is a Genesis 3, kind of description, to a "we can if," kind of approach, which is a

Genesis 1, or John 21 you know it's or John 20, but it's about the possibility that's been given to

us as a gift from God.

Greg Jones 33:34

But you know the when I say Easter hope, it's a hope that is comes to us as a gift from the

Spirit who's conforming us to Christ, whom John 1 and Colossians 1 say, is the one in whom the

world came to be. And so there's a continuity between remembering the gift of God in creation

and pointing to that vision of the future consummation and bringing that creation to its fullness

that holds this together.

Greg Jones 34:06

And that's why I love Jaroslav Pelikan's distinction between tradition and traditionalism.

Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. We all

know the traditionalism, where you cling to the past for the wrong reasons. Tradition, as the

living faith of the dead, calls us to remember, and that memory is absolutely crucial. You know,

I joke with my wife, she grew up Baptist, so with Bible sword drills and everything, but

dadgummit, she knows the Scripture and the whole narrative of the story so much deeper and

better than I do. And I wish I had that kind of reservoir to draw from, because that's when you

know the power of hope is really to be found.

Greg Jones 34:46

I give you a quick example on 9/11/2001, I knew after the planes had hit the towers, we called

a prayer service at Duke for noon. And I thought, well, I know we need to have a prayer service.

Then I thought, what the heck are we going to do during that time? Well, I at least had the good

sense to call two talented people into my office, both women, my wife, Susan and Ellen Davis, a

remarkable Old Testament professor. And I said, "You got any ideas for what to do in the prayer

service?" And Susan said, let's begin with "Great Is Thy Faithfulness" as a hymn. And I said, that

doesn't sound like the right hymn to start with when you're in crisis. And she says, "Well, it's

actually the words are from Lamentations 3, and it's set in the context..." And blah, blah, blah,

off she goes. And I went, Oh, okay.

Greg Jones 35:43

And then Ellen Davis says, "I think we ought to use Psalm 46," and I just stared at her. And, you

know, I thought she assumed I knew what it was. And then she said, "Well, you know the last

verse?" And I said, "Yeah." And she said, "It begins, 'God, wake up. Why are you sleeping?'" And

I was like, oh. And, you know, all of a sudden, I realized we had the framework for our prayer

service. Well, it was steeped in memory of both hymns and scripture, in Susan's case, and Ellen

Davis prays six Psalms every morning. So every 26th day, she's circling back through the

Psalter. She had it all memorized, whereas I had to go get a Bible to look it up.

Chris McAlilly 36:30

In Luke's account of the resurrection, you have the women who come to the tomb. They come

because they're preparing for, you know, to anoint the body for burial, and they're met there

with the empty tomb. And they're met by two angels, messengers and dazzling clothes. And

there's the message, "Why do you look for the living on the dead? He is not here. He's risen."

And the third phrase, is a command to remember, and that, you know, "remember what he said

when you were in Galilee." You know, "go back there. He said it had to be this way that he must

suffer and die, and after three days, rise again." And then they remembered, and that's the

thing that kind of pushes them into action, into hopeful action. I've just been pondering that.

Chris McAlilly 37:13

I wonder, kind of, as you think about that, what reflection do you have? If you're thinking about

if your organization is stuck, if it feels a bit like an empty tomb, you know, if you feel like you're

in a denomination or a university or a system that just is stagnated, and you know, how do you

get out of that place? Like, what is it about that story that kind of gives you the tools or the

frameworks to kind of get moving again?

Greg Jones 37:46

Well, I think it's a great point, and I would say in that story, and I try to remember this, you

know, the women weren't going there hopefully. They weren't going there thinking that they

were going to find a resurrected Christ. They were going just to grieve in the midst of despair.

And that's when everything shrinks, when you're fearful, when you're grieving, when you're in

despair, you're just living in the moment. And it is, it's paralyzing. And I think the gift that

comes is when the angels, or in John 20, when the risen Christ appears and calls Mary by name.

And at first she doesn't really grasp what that's about, until she turns and then sees him.

Greg Jones 38:36

And I think the power there, and this is what I'd say to people who feel stuck, what would it

mean to just believe that the risen Christ might be speaking to us? You know, I sometimes half

jokingly say the real division in American church life is between those who think the

resurrection really is real and those who don't. So I say, you know, I got two questions. Do you

believe God raised Jesus from the dead on Easter and do you believe God poured out the Holy

Spirit at Pentecost? If you believe those two things, we have a lot we can work on together and

have disagreements about a whole host of other things. But if you don't believe either of those

things are real, then we got problems, because it's just this worldly game of winners and losers.

Greg Jones 39:23

And so I would say to a pastor or to a lay leader in a meeting, just spend some time talking

about, where have you seen the presence and power of God at work in your life, in your family,

in this church, in this community, or somewhere around the world. And if you begin saying,

"Well, I saw God at work because, you know, the person who I've despised all my life actually

wanted to have lunch." Or, you know, it can be very basic, or it can be very big, but if you get

them thinking that maybe God's at work, it gets us unstuck. Now that may not initially be good

news, because it may be calling me to repent or to change, but it's still news. And you know

when Mary is told, "Go and tell the disciples I have seen the Lord." That's a pretty powerful

thing to say to somebody else.

Eddie Rester 40:20

Repent or change what you believe or let something die. I think...

Greg Jones 40:25

Yeah.

Eddie Rester 40:25

I think sometimes we want resurrection without the death of. And you know, resurrection

happens out of death. And I think sometimes churches want to hold everything forever. And

this, I'm pulling a thread here, I think. But how do we know, as we seek to practice resurrection,

as we're looking towards a hopeful God who's continuing to work, how do we begin to sort out

what needs to die in order for resurrection to happen in our place, in our institution, in our

church?

Greg Jones 40:59

Well, that's where that's a great question. I think the language of tradition and traditionalism

can help. Is this something that's living that maybe needs to continue living in a new key, or is

this something that's really pretty dead that we don't know why we're still doing it? And so

acknowledging that death is real. You know, I love Rowan Williams has this wonderful

distinction where he says, you know, most of us want Easter to be Christ, uncrucified. That's

not what Easter is. It's Christ, crucified and risen. You actually can't get to Easter apart from

Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday.

Greg Jones 41:39

And so to actually be able to say what has died or what needs to die. But, you know, we do a lot

of stuff in any organization, because we've all, quote, "always done it this way." Until you start

actually asking the question. And maybe, you know, 20 years or 40 years, it almost certainly

hasn't been always, because there was a time before any organization existed. But then you

say, well then, what does it mean? And if people can't actually tell you what it means now, then

it's probably just a dead ritual, rather than a life giving practice.

Chris McAlilly 42:19

Speaking of life giv practices. You know, I think one of the things that I've recognized in the role

that I'm in, being an executive leadership style of a role, is that there are always people. You've

got one week, you've got a calendar, you've got to figure out, what are the life giving practices

that actually feed and sustain your own moral and theological imagination within the busy

structure? And I assume for you that that is even more intense. I mean, you've got a number of

direct reports, you've got a number of different new initiatives that you are trying to get off the

ground, that you're trying to catalyze while maintaining what is existing. How do you do that?

How do you create the rhythms and structures within your week, within your schedule, within

your year, to sustain your own kind of moral, theological imagination so that you can show up

and help cultivate character and creativity in the organization?

Greg Jones 43:19

Now you've gone to meddling. I'm better at preaching than I am at embodying. But I think it's

what you've just described is absolutely crucial, because we can get so caught up in routines or

expectations of others that we actually don't replenish our own souls.

Chris McAlilly 43:38

So what does it look like for you?

Greg Jones 43:40

Well, I've developed some practices, and I've actually begun, and others have kind of insisted it

for me, but developing blocks of time each week that are time for, I mean, I call it green space,

but it's time that I just keep away from any kind of meetings, and sometimes it's just to kind of

take a walk and ponder, sometimes it's to read, sometimes it's to write, but it's time that I just

keep away from meetings and away from even exciting things that could happen, because it's

not just to avoid the bad stuff, it's to keep those rhythms.

Greg Jones 44:25

I've started every morning when I wake up, I pray Maggie's prayer, which is my friend from

Burundi: "Lord, let your miracles break forth every day and let me not be an obstacle in any

way." And then I reflect on that, because what it does for me is it reminds me to expect

miracles and to try to keep myself out of the way. So there are some little things I do. I've also

started trying to at night, I'm intermittently good at it, but actually to practice gratitude. You

know, that's the O in our SOUL framework. But I most of the time in the evening, stewing over

either what happened that day or what's going to happen tomorrow. And lo and behold, it kind

of disrupts my sleep. And if I can actually practice gratitude to God for gifts that have happened

during the day or relationships that I was able to tend, I've actually noticed my sleep is better

and I become a better leader the next day.

Chris McAlilly 45:24

Yeah, I thank you for saying that. I think we all... I think there are probably a number of people

that understand or feel that, because if you're carrying any load within a family, within an

organization...

Eddie Rester 45:37

Business.

Chris McAlilly 45:38

Student, you're a business leader, you're carrying some burdens. You're carrying the

vulnerabilities and the volatility of the culture and of the way in which it presses upon your

particular place of vocation. And those things are difficult to maintain. I think we all need to be

reminded of. I think we're all trying to get better that along the way. Yet, one of the images I've

been thinking about, as I've considered the conversation with you, and I think it's a good way

maybe to end, is this image from Wendell Berry's poem "The Mad Farmer's Liberation Front," at

the end, where he calls his listeners, his readers, to practice resurrection, to live counter

culturally rooted in hope, grounded in the soil of a particular place, and practice that in the

broken places, in places that need creative fidelity in a sustained way, so that people can see

the love of Christ in visible ways. I see you doing that, Greg, and you've done it for a long time.

I'm so grateful for the ways in which you're doing it in Nashville. Thank you so much for

spending time with us today. Thank you for the work that you're doing in kind of embodying a

way of practicing resurrection in Nashville. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Greg Jones 46:51

Well, thank you. And it's a great joy to be with you both. And I would just say that image of

practicing resurrection evokes, and you stated so beautifully, a version of what Dorothy Day

used to say that I try to keep in my mind about wanting to live in a life, wanting to live her life

in a way that wouldn't make sense if God doesn't exist. And I would just say, I want my life, my

leadership, and what I do at Belmont, what you all do in congregations, I want us all to be living

in a way that points toward that resurrection and causes people to say,

"Huh. That probably doesn't make sense unless God's been at work there."

Eddie Rester 47:34

Greg, thank you. It's always a joy. I look forward to connecting with you again maybe, maybe in

Dallas when you head out to see the grandkids.

Greg Jones 47:41

Happy to do so it's been great to be with you both. Thanks for all you both do.

Eddie Rester 47:45

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Chris McAlilly 47:53

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