Human Sexuality - “Art of Exclusion” with Jonathan Kent Adams
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the hosts, The Weight Podcast, or Oxford University United Methodist Church. Furthermore, the images found on Jonathan Kent Adams’ websites might be considered graphic to some viewers. Viewer discretion is advised.
Shownotes:
Where words create division, art creates a new space to broaden understanding. Our creativity draws us nearer to God and gives us a channel to process a wide range of experiences, from hope and joy to pain and suffering. In this episode, Chris and Eddie are joined by Jonathan Kent Adams, a queer artist based out of Water Valley, Mississippi. After exploring multiple faith traditions throughout childhood, high school, and college, Jonathan has found a place of freedom within the beauty of art both within Christianity and outside of it. They talk about cultural masculinity and conformity, the challenges of coming out both internally and externally, and finding God as a place of consistent safety.
Series Info:
In March 2020, we started this podcast with the intention of introducing a larger conversation about human sexuality, a central area of division and disagreement in our particular denomination. We’ve decided to come back to that conversation, to explore the church’s relationship to the LGBTQ+ community in light of the various perspectives within the body of Christ. Our context places us at an interesting intersection of the conversation: we’re pastors in a college town, with a lot of progressive folks on a whole range of topics, and we’re pastors in Mississippi, a conservative state, with a lot of folks who think of themselves as conservative on a whole range of topics.
In this series, we hope to honor the weight of a wide range of experiences and perspectives. You will hear from church leaders who have vastly different angles on this cultural moment, on the church’s mission, and how the church should think about biblical authority and interpretation. You will also hear from several people within the LGBTQ+ community, those who are deeply committed to the church and those who have felt like the church’s witness often leaves them feeling on the outside.
We invite you to consider the weight of another person’s concerns, maybe someone with whom you deeply disagree, but to do so in a way that honors their humanity, their story, and their convictions. We make no attempt to be exhaustive or comprehensive. Our aim is not to persuade you on which side to take on this issue. Many of you already know what you believe, and nothing said on this podcast will change your mind. What we want to do is help you better understand both your own views and the views of those you may disagree with.
Resources:
After the Orlando Pulse Shooting in 2016, Jonathan Kent Adams created a tribute to tell the victims’ stories. View his tribute here:
Full Transcript:
Eddie Rester 0:00
I'm Eddie Rester.
Chris McAlilly 0:01
I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight. Today we are continuing a conversation about human sexuality. This has been a bit of a mini series for us and one that we know is a particularly poignant one and one where there's a lot of disagreement about how the church should relate in this particular cultural moment to the LGBTQ community. We're having a range of conversations.
Eddie Rester 0:27
And it's an important range of conversations. What we want to present is not something that you have to agree with each and every episode. But what we hope you'll do is engage with it. Listen to it. Our goal is not to fight with folks on the podcast. Our goal is not to present something that says, "This is what anyone has to believe." Our goal has always been to open up the conversation for folks.
Chris McAlilly 0:54
Yeah, the podcast is called The Weight. And what we hope that you can do in in hearing these stories and hearing these testimonies is to honor the weight of somebody else's convictions, especially if that person's convictions are different than your own. And, you know, we don't assume that we're going to change anybody's mind or that that your mind is going to be changed. In fact, we know that you probably have your convictions, just as everybody does. But we hope that you'll maybe learn something new or have kind a better awareness or understanding of your own views, or the views of somebody else.
Eddie Rester 1:29
Right. A depth of understanding what you believe, or a view of this is what someone else believes. And I believe that can be helpful for us in the conversations that we need to have with one another inside the church and outside the church. And don't forget that this series, our release schedule is Monday and Thursday as kind of a mini series. We want to get more voices in each week. So listen for us on Mondays. Watch for us on Mondays and Thursdays.
Chris McAlilly 1:57
Thanks for being with us on The Weight. Like it, share it, and let us know what you think, if we're missing something. We know it's not exhaustive. If we're missing something, let us know. We'll come back to this conversation later.
Chris McAlilly 2:06
[INTRO] We started this podcast out of frustration with the tone of American Christianity.
Eddie Rester 2:12
There are some topics too heavy for sermons and sound bites.
Chris McAlilly 2:15
We wanted to create a space with a bit more recognition of the difficulty, nuance, and complexity of cultural issues.
Eddie Rester 2:23
If you've given up on the church, we want to give you a place to encounter a fresh perspective on the wisdom of the Christian tradition, in our conversations about politics, race, sexuality, art, and mental health.
Chris McAlilly 2:35
If you're a Christian seeking a better way to talk about the important issues of the day, with more humility, charity, and intellectual honesty, that grapples with scripture and the church's tradition in a way that doesn't dismiss people out of hand, you're in the right place.
Eddie Rester 2:50
Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
Chris McAlilly 2:53
Well, we're here today with Jonathan Kent Adams. Jonathan, thanks so much for taking the time to be with us today.
Jonathan Kent Adams 2:58
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Eddie Rester 3:00
For folks who are listening, this is our first in-person recording of The Weight in...
Chris McAlilly 3:07
Long time.
Eddie Rester 3:08
In a long, long time.
Chris McAlilly 3:09
We've been zooming. We're all vaccinated. We're here.
Eddie Rester 3:11
So if it feels awkward, it's because, uh,
Chris McAlilly 3:14
Yeah, we don't know quite what to do with ourselves. So it is what it is.
Eddie Rester 3:17
Well, Jonathan, thank you for being with us. today. You're an artist. You grew up in Yazoo City, Mississippi, went to Ole Miss, spent some time in New York. So where in the journey did you really begin to discover your passion for art?
Jonathan Kent Adams 3:35
Probably in college. So around my sophomore year, that's when I came out as gay. And it was kind of a place, it was an art class was an elective for me. And it was a place where I felt like I can make sense and find peace with them myself, was that art class. So when around the same time I had been kicked out of Young Life for coming out as gay, so art became a place where I felt a freedom to be myself, but also still felt a connection to God. So around that time is when I guess the passion for art showed up for me. I mean, I have always been artistic, I guess growing up, but never like, "this is what I want to do." Because I came to college and wanted to be a criminal justice major.
Eddie Rester 4:30
It's a big jump from criminal justice to art.
Jonathan Kent Adams 4:32
Very big jump. I wanted to get to law school and yeah, it was a huge shift and change.
Chris McAlilly 4:40
What point in college was that for you?
Jonathan Kent Adams 4:43
Sophomore year.
Chris McAlilly 4:44
Yeah. I feel like a lot of people in college hit that sophomore year, undecided thing and then it's like, "what am I going to do?" or something kind of emerges that they didn't expect. Criminal Justice, though, what gave rise to that desire? What do you think it was?
Jonathan Kent Adams 4:59
I was kind of interested in Bryan Stevenson and like the work he was doing and so I wanted to go and help people on death row. Like, I thought it would be... I mean, I think it's wonderful, what he's doing. But once I was taking classes, I was like, "Nathan, this is not for you."
Chris McAlilly 5:17
Yeah, his work is amazing. I cannot imagine doing it. "Just Mercy" is an incredible book for those who might not know the name Bryan [Stevenson], but racial justice in the American South is kind of his thing. I wonder, you know, so going back to Yazoo City, what are some of the other ways in which you realized that you are artistic?
Jonathan Kent Adams 5:39
I sang a lot, growing up, that was another way I put art, I guess, out into the world. I would, I was the editor of our yearbook in school. I painted randomly. It was terrible. Like, very bad. Like initials and things like that. But I guess, so growing up, those were some of the ways that I was creative. But I mean, the more I was growing into myself growing up, it became more of a performance of wanting to be more and do things that culturally are more masculine. So I tried to, like, play more sports. I would, you know, not paint as much, not that I avoided it completely. But they weren't, like defining things that I wanted to put into the world about myself, because I felt like I was trying to conform to what people wanted me to be, I guess.
Chris McAlilly 6:35
Right. Right. Yeah, masculinity in the South is a thing. I mean, it's like, you know, your you hunt, you fish, you...
Eddie Rester 6:44
You play football.
Chris McAlilly 6:45
You play football. Or you hunt or you fish or you play football. If you don't hunt, fish, or play football, then there's just not a lot of space, you know, for exploring what it means to be a man, you know, I think, I mean, I've seen that, you know, over and over again. One of the things that I think is interesting, and I was reading a bit about one of the first paintings that you gave away as a gift, and in what I read was that you gave it as a gift to a couple that had lost a premature baby. And I wonder if you could tell that story, and maybe kind of its impact on you in terms of how you think about the power of art.
Jonathan Kent Adams 7:23
I mean, I guess when I heard the story, I was just moved. And I was like, "What do I have to offer?" And as I was sitting in my room, I was like, well, Nathan, you can make a painting. And so I decided to make. And the baby, they ended up calling it Faith, which is what the painting, it had the word "faith" in it, like I was saying, I was painting initials at the time. So it was a very wordy art. But more than what I think the art is aesthetically looked like, it gave me the ability to be a part of someone else's healing journey. And I mean, as I've become an artist, art has become that for me. So at the time, I didn't even see what I was noticing and what I was giving away, I would end up giving to myself down the road.
Chris McAlilly 8:15
I think art as a means or a vehicle or mechanism of healing is something that I see is a running thread in your story and in your art. What are some of the other ways in which that's played itself out for you?
Jonathan Kent Adams 8:34
Probably with... Definitely around the time, like, a year or two after the Young Life, leaving Young Life, getting kicked out, however you want to say it. I mean, I made a lot of work. Like an installation in Columbus, Mississippi, where we had an abandoned house, and it was called Splinter, and another artist invtied me to do one of the rooms in the abandoned house. The whole project was about making an inclusive space for these people who don't have voices, especially in the South. And so I turned my room into kind of like a church for queer people. And so I ask people on my Instagram to send me pictures of their bodies, and then I drew all of our bodies on the wall and just wrote kind of a mantra all over the wall, like repetition, "We are all the same. We are all the same." And that space was really healing for me and also allowed for conversations with people in Columbus, Mississippi who might not think that, you know, queer Christians can exist. So, that was a healing experience.
Jonathan Kent Adams 9:46
The Pulse nightclub, the tribute that I did, that was... I mean, I had people that knew some of the people that had died reach out to me and talk about those people. And for me, it was also a way for me to deal with the pain of being a gay person and seeing that many people in a space where gay people usually feel safe, you know, be mowed down by an assault rifle. So, I mean, I remember hanging the show in the Student Union. And they were all at eye level, and, like, you felt like you were with them. And people were reading their stories that HRC had put out a video of well-known or famous people reading the victim stories. And so you got to hear their stories, visually see them. And being in that space was just very powerful to me.
Eddie Rester 10:42
You talk about how your faith has been important to you, particularly since junior high. As you came out, when you were at Ole Miss, how did all of that kind of converge? What was the conversation in your own heart in mind that kind of went on around your faith at that time?
Jonathan Kent Adams 11:03
It was challenging personally, and in an outward way. Like, what I was told, what I was telling myself, just a shift within me as well, was also challenging. Talking about, before we started the podcast, they were talking about--Eddie and Chris--were talking about roads. And at one point, a few years ago, you know, the shift. If you live in Oxford, there was a big renovation or roadway change at an intersection. And everybody was up in arms about the process of that intersection change in between Jackson Avenue and Highway 6. And looking back, like, it was difficult, but on the other side of it, it's so much easier.
Jonathan Kent Adams 11:50
And so for me, I mean, this is kind of the way I see that transition of my faith of like, reconciling what I think it means to be gay and Christian is that we are kind of at a point where people are starting to tell their stories. And so I might not always have the right words for what it means or how I've gotten here, but it's that process. Like, on the other side, I don't know if it will be like 50 years from now, when there are people that are able to communicate it better. But I have always known since I was little, I feel like God is with me. And in junior high when that started, I guess like everyone, not every family is perfect. And so you know, I think feeling like an outsider, knowing that I was gay, but pretending to not be gay, and also noticing dysfunction in some areas of family, I didn't feel like I had any safety anywhere. So God for me became that space.
Jonathan Kent Adams 13:00
And I think that that has just always been that way for me, like God has always been a consistent place in my life where I find love or I find peace, where I go to when I'm anxious. Before here, I prayed, like, "God, you're here, and that's enough." But there's so many points on that journey that, I mean, I use the metaphor of the road, that have been pivotal. Like, I went to New York, and I saw a gay couple in Catholic Church for the first time the summer after that sophomore year that I came out, was removed from Young Life. And when I saw that, I mean, I had never thought that a possibility. Nobody in my Christian circles were like, "There are a small percentage of Christians that think that gay people should be in the church." No one told me that. You know, at least be honest. If you're a pastor with people that, like, "There are a variety of views on this topic. We might not know the answer." You know? No one told me that.
Jonathan Kent Adams 14:06
So just seeing that couple kind of opened my eyes a little bit, that the world is bigger than where I've come from and the people that I've talked to. And so I emailed the religion professor at Ole Miss, Sarah Moses, and she's one of my favorite teachers. And I told her about the experience. And I was like, "What do you know about people that are LGBTQ in the church?" And she was like, "Well, you can read these books and see what you think about it." And so that was kind of a pivotal moment for me.
Jonathan Kent Adams 14:40
It's also weird because I don't necessarily... My relationship with God hasn't changed much, but the way I interact in a religious community has, because I don't go to church anymore. I was brushing my teeth before I came here actually, and I was walking in our kitchen, and there's this bowl on our kitchen island. And they're shells that I picked up at the beach a few weeks ago when we went and they're all smooth and not much of a shell anymore. And I was thinking, I was like, that's how it felt in church. I felt wave after wave of authority and people who tried to tell me what to be, like they wanted me to become that small piece of shell. They didn't want me to be a fully alive human and know my heart, you know? So, yeah, that was something else about before I got here.
Chris McAlilly 15:40
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing. And, you know, I wonder if you would be willing to maybe talk a little bit more about... I want to get kind of to your art, I'm going to come back around to that. But before we go there, I wonder if you could talk just a little bit more about kind of your faith background, because it was a particular kind of tradition that you were a part of, and I see. Catholicism, I understand is where you came from, kind of initially, before you found your way into Young Life, and then into art. And I see that coming up. There there are certain kind of Catholic themes that run through your art. But I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your engagement just with Catholicism and particularly the visual dimensions of Catholic art. Maybe just talk a little bit about that dimension.
Jonathan Kent Adams 16:33
I guess at first, growing up, I was kind of weirded out by Catholicism a little bit. Because my family, I guess in the early part of my life, we didn't go to church a ton, or maybe I miss-remember that we didn't. I don't know. But I feel like that was more of my grandmother wanting us to go to church was the reason that we went to the Catholic Church.
Chris McAlilly 16:55
That's a lot of people's grandmamas.
Eddie Rester 16:57
That's right.
Jonathan Kent Adams 16:58
Yeah. So, for me, like, yes, I grew up Catholic, and I was confirmed, but even when I was doing that, it was--I'm sorry, Mamaw, if you ever hear this--a lot of obligation out of me. I feel like I found God in the Bible. And I found God in my youth group at the Baptist Church, even though some of that conversations and things I was told were problematic. I found God kind of at RUF in college, even though that's very specific way of seeing God, you know. You're in, you're not. And I think also that belief in God, that God has chosen you and that can never change is also just very comforting, psychologically, for me. And so I think that that might have been why I kind of clung to that view, that version of what a group of people believe about God.
Jonathan Kent Adams 18:00
But so yeah, now, if I was to choose to go to a religious ceremony, it would be a Catholic Church, or an Episcopal Church where I'm welcomed. And a lot of that has to do with I do like the, kind of, just traditions of the Eucharist being something that's consistent within the church daily. And I don't know. I feel like I like that. And to me, the Catholic Church, after I had decided that it wasn't what I wanted to specifically believe about Jesus and the way that you see God, I would go back as I got older and return to the church at home or a Catholic Church even here, and it's just very calm, peaceful.
Jonathan Kent Adams 18:46
I like the art. I'm moved by the images. I made a series of bodies that were kind of broken up into bright colors that were meant to be like a reflection of stained glass. So I feel like just sitting and some Sundays, getting bored and looking at the windows, like I was really moved by the beauty of the light coming through those windows. And for me, I feel like queer people have always been judged by their bodies and their shells, like I was saying, and so for me, when I made that series, it was kind of a way of honoring those bodies as something worthy of being a stained glass window and a sacred space.
Eddie Rester 19:28
Kind of connecting to your art, there was an article I read and you said that, to you art is a form of prayer. So how does that work for you, art becoming that connection to God, to your faith?
Jonathan Kent Adams 19:45
Well, for me, prayer is a place of just complete freedom. I mean, once you get past the story of forgiveness of Jesus and like the way I see that story, post that, when I go to God, it's complete freedom. I'm able to be whatever I am in that moment, whether it's angry, sad, confused, maybe lost, maybe happy. That is complete freedom to me, is prayer, meditation, walking in the woods and just gazing at God around me and being in me.
Jonathan Kent Adams 20:21
So, art as that--some moments, my art is that to me. It's a place of complete freedom, a place where I'm not thinking about anything else, but just being alive. And I feel like that is one of the most pure ways to experience God. Outside of experiencing God through people is just that place of abandon, and just not thinking about what's going on. And so when I create, I think of that. And also prayer as in "what am I putting out into the world?" Like the show in Columbus, writing that we are loved, and that we are all the same. And I did that in the Pulse tribute as well. That was a prayer for me. So like, "God, help people believe this. I want to believe this."
Eddie Rester 21:10
You talk about a place of expressing and being who you are in that moment, whether that's angry or lost, or happy or joyful. I think a lot about the Psalms. The psalms are the scriptures that carry the full expression of humanity within them. They're written as songs. They're not just poems, they're not narrative, a narrative part of Scripture, they're this part where people can be the people who wrote them, whether it was David or other folks, could really express everything. And I wonder if maybe the church doesn't need more art, more opportunities for people to express themselves through art.
Chris McAlilly 21:55
I think one of the things that, you know, especially within Protestantism, and the American South, particularly Mississippi, is very word heavy. You know, I think one of the things is interesting is that you found space with visual expression, so where words can in some ways, kind of like, here are the words, you say the words in the right order and in the right way, and so then visual art creates this different space. I don't know. I think there's something powerful about that. And for me, like growing up in Protestantism, and then finding the Catholic church, I didn't know anything about the Catholic church and the way that it functioned, or, you know, I wouldn't read in Catholic theology. I was just going into these massive cathedrals and seeing this beautiful art and it did something to me. It created a different kind of a path or kind of a different avenue into a different part of spirituality that hadn't been available to me before.
Eddie Rester 22:52
You talk about some times when you were bored, you look at the stained glass windows, which is the exact reason that they're there.
Chris McAlilly 22:58
That's why we have them there, because when Eddie's preaching, it's just tough.
Eddie Rester 23:02
It's just tough, man. That's why if, when I'm preaching, you see me looking at the stained glass windows, I'm even bored of myself in that moment, and need something. So you want to push one more thing, and then we'll let Chris loop back around to the art. As you told your story, what do you wish Christians would hear? Or what do you wish that they would hear from your story? Because there are people that are listening today who are glad to hear your story. There are people listening today that are uncomfortable hearing your story. And so what would you hope that maybe the ones who are uncomfortable, or even the ones who are comfortable? That's a long question, I'm sorry. What do you want folks to hear from you?
Jonathan Kent Adams 23:58
I guess love. I know that is kind of a gushy, overused word, and especially our culture, but to actually love people, whether you're uncomfortable or comfortable. Some of the people who are uncomfortable listening may have a child that's gay. They may have to deal with that. What are they going to choose? Are they going to choose love? Are they going to put fear into their child and turn them away from their family? So I mean, I personally, I don't care what people think of me. I look at the life of Jesus, and he wasn't worried about that, you know? He was not worried about what the religious people thought of him, what people who weren't religious thought of him. He knew that God lived in him. He knew that he was God.
Jonathan Kent Adams 24:54
And so, that part necessarily doesn't bother me. It's more of just thinking about the freedom of love. If you have a child that's gay, are you going to force them to see the world a certain way, which they might push back against? Or are you going to tell them, if you're especially a Christian family, "Hey, I love you." Like, "I might believe this. But there are a variety of ways that people believe about sexuality. Maybe you can look in to what you think about it, and we'll be there for you. We will love you." That's what I would say to the people who are uncomfortable. With the people that are accepting, I would just say, thank you. Please use your voice. We need more people that are supportive.
Chris McAlilly 25:44
I want to come back to to your art and maybe dig in a little bit more. One of the things that I've seen, kind of a motif over the course of time, is the way in which you use these large fields of almost like landscapes. In some ways, like hearing you talk about freedom or space, the need for freedom or space, it makes a bit more sense. But at the center of some of your pieces is almost like a silhouette, sometimes of yourself. I wonder if you would maybe talk a little bit about kind of what's going on there and kind of what you're hoping for, because it appears that you're... I mean, again, the way that you were talking about "I don't know if I have the words," I don't know if I have the words to describe what I see. But I can see this kind of movement to create space, or also like paradoxically, to kind of say that there's something about my place in the world that doesn't feel like I can be seen, or... I'm not saying it right, or well, or whatever. But I wonder if you could just kind of flesh that out a little bit. Because I do think it's a really compelling and interesting dimension of your work that I see repeating itself.
Jonathan Kent Adams 27:00
So the pieces that I believe you're talking about, I've called them daily offerings, and to me, they were like the meditation of myself within a natural space. And it was basically to say that, like, even though sometimes I appear to not fit in with the natural space, within some of the pieces. Some pieces, the figure becomes almost the landscape. Other pieces, the figure does not. But I was trying to communicate that. Even if it appears that way, you're still in that space. You're still there. You're still a part of that space.
Jonathan Kent Adams 27:44
And so, I mean, it was kind of like a return back to when Eddie and I were talking about prayer, you can go and, like the Psalms, it doesn't matter how you're feeling. You were there. So some of the figures that are separated from the space like that might have been a day where I didn't necessarily feel like I was in tune with myself or with God or with things around me. And I felt more isolated. And then ones that become more of the landscape themselves was a day that I felt unity.
Eddie Rester 28:16
What are you working on right now?
Jonathan Kent Adams 28:17
Right now I'm working on, so I'm sending art to Provincetown, Massachusetts to a gallery and the series has kind of been about our obsession with seeing ourselves or wanting other people to see us through selfies. So I've been making work that's about that. And also, I feel like something that we haven't talked about yet within my work is that some of my work can be borderline like sexual. And I just want to go there because a lot... I do that because in the South, specifically, we avoid conversations around sex in general. Straight people do, it's not just... And I don't even know if it's something we can talk about on the podcast, but just for the sake of conversation. I just want to put that into the world. So people still know that I'm a gay man, that my experience in the world is different from heterosexual people. That is a part of my work that people will see if they look at the whole piece of my art that I try to put out there.
Jonathan Kent Adams 29:29
But the new work, it's about just kind of our obsession with wanting to be seen and how we use phones to see ourselves, and I'm hoping once they're all together in the gallery that... There's a piece I'm hanging of Blake, my partner, and it's my shadow of me taking the picture of him, so the shadow is the selfie, but you get lost in Blake's eyes, because he's a person before you. I took a selfie of myself and just painted me without the phone or anything. And so you're looking into my eyes. And so I'm hoping that these moments within the show, maybe you're drawn to those pieces, because you actually stand before humans, and you're looking into their eyes, and the phone's not there anymore. And then there are a few pieces where it's still a selfie, but it's like a shadow within an environment. So you're not seeing the person. You're more focused of the person in the space. And so it kind of goes back to the daily offering series that we're all a part of a bigger connected thing, rather than just like isolated individuals with a phone.
Chris McAlilly 30:35
Yeah, what I see...
Eddie Rester 30:37
I was just gonna say, you talk about the phone coming between us. And I think, recently on a trip, realized in a moment that I had, I was seeing this beauty through the phone, and not the actual beauty. And so I intentionally in this moment, just put the phone down, so I could actually just absorb what was happening. So I'll be interested to hear about how people receive that show. I mean, I think it's something that we're gonna have to deal with.
Jonathan Kent Adams 31:10
I think so.
Eddie Rester 31:10
As humans in the coming years, I mean...
Chris McAlilly 31:13
I do think that the thread that I see running through your art, I mean, just kind of all the different dimensions, is to try to put before those who are viewing your art the humanity of one another, and you explore that in different themes. Sometimes you use religious imagery and iconography. Sometimes you're exploring it as you explore your own humanity and your own kind of sense of your worth before God. And then sometimes you're doing that with other people. And it's, you know, I think it's really interesting.
Chris McAlilly 31:50
I do think that there is a way in which American culture and particularly the American South, kind of cordons off, or it has this very strange or mysterious or weird relationship with sexuality broadly. And we're both incredibly hyper-sexualized, in the world across the board. And then we also are very uncomfortable having this conversations. And we don't know how to talk about that well within the church. So we stumble around. But I do think that, you know, within Christian, particularly Catholic Christian culture, within art, I mean, I think about Michelangelo's David. I think about the Sistine Chapel. I mean, the exploration of the human form is something that has been done within Christian art through time, for a very long time, really going back to the Renaissance. So you've got this sense of the exploration of not just the spiritual dimension of life, but the importance of human bodies is being taken into consideration in terms of taking consideration of person's sacredness in the world--that I'm a person, I'm in the world, I have a body, I have to be taken. You can't just say, I'm not here, right? You know, and I wonder kind of how you think about that, in terms of the art that you're putting out there in the world. It's almost like you're trying to put a mirror back up to the rest of us and say, "Look, I'm here."
Jonathan Kent Adams 33:16
I mean, you're basically saying what I think and what I am trying to do. So it's somewhat comforting to me that in some ways that I do that. Because I mean, that's what I'm trying to do--show that I am here, show that there are other people that are queer here, too, especially in the South, and that we live in bodies. That we aren't objects that you can just disregard or just have conversations with without interacting with us at the coffee shop, or just in regular life, or at your churches.
Chris McAlilly 33:55
I guess the harder question that I wonder about, is why you stay in Mississippi. It seems like a hard--And I don't mean that, I'm not saying you should leave. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, like, I can imagine that that's difficult. And I wonder kind of why are you committed to Mississippi? And I'm not saying that you may never go some other place. But why has it been important for you to stay here in the place that's been your home?
Jonathan Kent Adams 34:20
I feel like we all have the ability to leave wherever just because of technology and the way the world has changed. But I guess I see it as my body's here for a reason, in this space, in this location in the world, at this point in history. And so I try to honor that. And if it gets too difficult, which I mean, you never know. Maybe I would leave, but I would hope that I'm strong enough to be here and that there would be enough people that would support if things turn strange politically. I feel like we're just in a very weird time in America. Maybe in other parts of the world, too, where just things could go bad.
Jonathan Kent Adams 34:30
I don't know necessarily what that means, but I think we're in a lot of big shifts around what religion means to people, how we've handled race, specifically in America. I feel like there are a lot of big shifts that we're living through that we might not all see what it looks like on the other side of it. But I think for me to be here in Mississippi, and just use my art to show people that might not be exposed to queer people, it's important. If I did that in New York, the channel that God has opened for me about being here, it would be diminished, because people--I mean, not that my story is not an important in New York, it's just I find that I'm here for a reason.
Eddie Rester 36:02
Have you had a moment through any of your shows locally or conversations that you've you found just an opportunity of where maybe a dialog has opened for you and someone else maybe who sees faith or religion or church differently, that you find it was a helpful conversation?
Jonathan Kent Adams 36:25
Yes, specifically, after, well, two times: the Pulse tribute, I got a lot of messages and some emails of people who, I don't know. I guess, when they were confronted with, one, the tragedy of the situation that happened at Pulse, that that moved them. But you know, I wrote about what happened and my place in Mississippi as a queer person, and just them kind of having to think about what that might mean, I think moved people to reach out to me and talk more. And then in Columbus, I talked to two ladies I remember that night who were just in tears and moved and talked to me that they had never considered that people like this might be here in their churches or in their family. And so yeah, those are really important moments that have been encouraging.
Chris McAlilly 37:22
I think one of the things, coming back to the social media dimension, and then also space and the fact that we occupy space with people who disagree with us, I think a coffee shop is a good example, a church is a good example of a place where people are gathering, they're convening, they're living. You kind of get reminded of the fact that you're living in a place where not everybody is like you, not everybody thinks the same way that you do. And folks disagree. That's a challenging space, though, in a time in our cultural moment where we're, I don't know. The conversation seems to be moving in more and more polarized directions, but also more and more homogenous communities. And I do think it's kind of interesting to consider the possibility that, you know, we might commit to places, in places that perhaps God has given us to be, or that we've been planted. It's countercultural to think of it in those terms. It's more like, "Let me find my people. And now I'm going to go and be with my people." I find it to be very difficult. I mean, I'm fighting. I'm trying to figure that out for myself. I know you are as well. What have you found helpful within that? You know, what has been helpful for you in thinking about making a commitment to a place and not just to people that are just like minded?
Jonathan Kent Adams 38:47
Other people who want change, who are staying. That has been encouraging to me. With social media, you know, that gives people the opportunity to not always be where they are to... I don't know if that's where you're trying to go with the conversation. But, because I have social media, I'm connected to a lot of other gay people that I'm not connected to here, and a lot of other different ways of seeing the world that maybe a majority doesn't see here. So I do feel a connection, even though people physically aren't here.
Jonathan Kent Adams 39:19
But then, you know, there are people in the South who, you know, I would not expect to be here, but they are and they're trying their best to make it a better place. Not everyone. Also think about the privilege I have to have a family that loves me, who are choosing to love me for who I am. And not everyone, one, has the money to move, two, has a family that is very supportive. So I'm very fortunate that I have a family that does. So I don't know, that's also into consideration that I think about. And then also I just think about the Black people that have lived in Mississippi who have made the best of the hard hand that they've been dealt from white people in this space, and just their bravery and their way of finding value within themselves, when for history, we treated Black people terribly. That inspires me to be here, when people might think that a gay person shouldn't be here, or it might not be the majority view. It's a look to stories from the past to find, that's another way I see hope.
Eddie Rester 40:42
You mentioned your family. And actually back when we were talking about coming out, I meant to ask about your family. And you say that your family is very supportive and encouraging. Has it been that way from the beginning? Was it a process? How did that work with your coming out?
Jonathan Kent Adams 41:01
I would say for the most part, my family has been super supportive. Maybe not know all the right answers. But when I was speaking of love, love the people that around you, they did that for me. And they still do. I mean, there's not like the support sometimes that you have in your head that you would want maybe distant relatives to have for you. But I think that's just kind of, maybe expectations that I have that aren't met. And I should love in return and not expect things. So yeah, and also, I think that has a lot to do with just family history, too.
Jonathan Kent Adams 41:41
Like, my parents divorced, I guess, my 11th grade year, and I came out to them a few years later. So it's like, you have some families within small communities here in Mississippi, and you try to protect this image of what you think people should have of your family. So maybe if my parents had this cookie-cutter relationship, and then I came out maybe down the road, maybe they would have still felt a little weird. There are so many things that I feel like go into the way people respond situations like that. Maybe my parents already felt like people judge them for their marriage. And so maybe it was easier for them to love me because they were choosing unconditional love for themselves. And so they understood what it meant to kind of feel a little shame.
Chris McAlilly 42:33
This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you being with us today, Jonathan. Thanks for taking the time to come up and be in conversation with us. I don't really have a closing question. I'm going to pitch it to Eddie and see if he does.
Eddie Rester 42:47
Final words here. What would you, if there was an invitation to someone listening that again, we talked earlier, may be uncomfortable, what would your invitation to them the today?
Jonathan Kent Adams 43:02
I guess to step into love. Ask yourself what it means to think differently, to walk in someone else's shoes that are not like you. Have you ever taken the time to try to see things a way that's different from the way that you've previously thought? Do you choose comfort? Are you protecting your image? So the invitation to me would be to step into love, and try to walk through doors that are different than the ones that you've always walked through. And maybe you will walk out of the door that was freedom for me in my journey with God. And maybe you will disagree with that. I'm okay with that. But I would still choose to love that person. I would not be friends with them. But in my everyday life, I would love them.
Jonathan Kent Adams 43:55
I think that we all carry Jesus with us. I believe that. Sorry if it's too long, but in Richard Rohr's book, "The Universal Christ," like at the I think it might be the preface of the book, there's a Catholic lady, she has an experience on underground train, I think in London, where she has a revelation, or just a vision within her head that like everyone has Christ within them. Dead, risen, alive. And so it's like you enteract with some people who you might think are evil, but maybe Christ is dead in that person. Maybe the alive Christ needs to experience conversation with that person. And so I think about when I interact with everyone.
Jonathan Kent Adams 44:37
We are all a part of God. And so, is it more important in this invitation for you to be right? Or is it more important for the person that you're interacting with to feel loved by you by the end of your interaction? So yeah, that would be my invitation. bitola
Eddie Rester 44:54
Well, thank you for that invitation. And thank you for sharing your story and your life and about your artwork with us today. Thank you.
Jonathan Kent Adams 45:02
Thank y'all for having me. I'm grateful.
Eddie Rester 45:05
[OUTRO] Thank you for listening to this episode of The Weight.
Chris McAlilly 45:08
If you like what you heard today, feel free to share the podcast with other people that are in your network. Leave us a review. That's always really helpful. Subscribe, and you can follow us on our social media channels.
Eddie Rester 45:20
If you have any suggestions or guests you'd like us to interview or anything you'd like to share with us, you can send us an email at info@theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]