“Decentered Church” with Scott Black Johnston
Shownotes:
Our world is increasingly polarized, and public discourse often leads to anger. The Church used to be at the center of these conversations, but Scott Black Johnston sees the church as becoming more decentered: stepping to the side, offering critique--or praise--and adding to the conversation. He talks about the current pervasiveness of anger with gentleness and grace, and challenges everyone to take a step towards temperance--being calm and encouraging, listening, and valuing each other.
Scott is the senior pastor at Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church in Manhattan. He is an author of several books. His most recent book is Elusive Grace: Loving Your Enemies while Striving for God’s Justice.
Resources:
Scott Black Johnston’s website
Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church on YouTube
Transcript:
Chris McAlilly 00:00 I'm Chris McAlilly.
Eddie Rester 00:01
And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.
Chris McAlilly 00:04
Today we have Scott Black Johnston, pastor of Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church in Manhattan, as our guest. Scott has written a book called "Elusive Grace." And this is a wonderful conversation. Eddie, what did you take away?
Eddie Rester 00:18
Well, I kind of hogged the conversation. I apologize. I want to go ahead and apologize to you, Chris, and probably apologize to the listeners that we have. Because he just speaks into this moment of how do we love our enemies and continue to speak for justice or righteousness or whatever we're pursuing, that we see the other person maybe not moving in our direction or moving against us in that. And it's such a significant moment, I think, for the church and for Christians right now, to figure that out. What about you? What did you take away or what was important for you?
Chris McAlilly 01:01
There been a lot of conversations that we've had on the podcast about kind of the changing role of the church in America. And one of the ways he frames that is that the church is now decentered. There may have been a moment where the church was closer to power, but that power is waning, or declining, and rather than thinking of that as a bad thing, Scott, I think, sees it as something to embrace. And rather than thinking that the church should, you know, somehow kind of grab control and bend everybody else to to its desire, power, or will.
Chris McAlilly 01:41
You know, there's like this counterpoint that he sees that the church can be to the larger kind of trends. And he puts the emphasis on virtue, which I think is is really helpful. Instead of saying, you know, we need to do X, Y, or Z thing, it really it puts the emphasis on what kind of people we're becoming. Other people have done that, but he does in a very effective way. And it comes through in just the way you can hear it in how he answers questions.
Eddie Rester 02:13
Yeah. And how he preaches. He talks about his preaching, and I think his preaching reflects what he believes about how we should be formed as people and living. So the book is "Elusive Grace," and so I'd encourage you to check it out. Thank you for listening to the podcast, share it with somebody, give us a review like it, do whatever you kids out there do that we old people don't understand anymore. I'm claiming it. I'm old Chris. You're not gonna say anything to that? You're just gonna let it be?
Chris McAlilly 02:45
I'm just gonna let it be today, man. Just gonna let it be. Thanks for being with us on the podcast, guys. Glad you're listening.
Eddie Rester 02:51
[INTRO] Life can be heavy. We carry around with us the weight of our doubt, our pain, our suffering, our mental health, our family system, our politics. This is a podcast that creates space for all of that.
Chris McAlilly 03:04
We want to talk about these things with humility, charity and intellectual honesty. But more than that, we want to listen. It's time to open up our echo chamber. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
Chris McAlilly 03:19
We're here today with Scott Black Johnston, pastor of Fifth Avenue Presbyterian in Manhattan. Scott, welcome to the podcast. We're glad you're here today.
Scott Black Johnston 03:30 It's good to be here.
Eddie Rester 03:31
Great, great to have you, Scott, and I guess the first question as a New Yorker, Mets or
Yankees? Who you got?
Scott Black Johnston 03:39
Mets. I've been a Mets fan since I was five years old. Tom Seaver, Miracle Mets, 1969. You know, in this town, the Yankees, they're the establishment. The Mets are the scrappy folks out in Queens. But it's been a good year for baseball in New York. But right now the Yankees the ones left standing so yeah.
Chris McAlilly 04:05
We're recording this after a couple of losses out in Houston for the Yankees, too. So I don't know if they're gonna be able to pull it out. You wrote a book, Scott, that we've taken a look at, called "Elusive Grace." And the subtitle is "Loving Your Enemies While Striving for God's Justice." And you know, within the book you hear kind of your take on where we are in America at this moment and in the American church. I wonder kind of, you know, maybe talk a little bit about what gave rise to the book.
Scott Black Johnston 04:45
Yeah, there's a couple of different ways to answer that question. One is simply to say that the book began as the Thomas White Curry lectures at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Austin Texas, but I think the whole idea behind it began with a quotation from Andrew Sullivan, the Roman Catholic writer who spoke about the current moment and described it as the Great Awokening. And that got me thinking about the parallels between this moment--and differences--between this moment and the Great Awakenings and got me thinking about what kind of religious and moral moment are we in.
Eddie Rester 05:40
I know you think about this in terms of, historically, the Civil War was another cultural breaking point in the United States, Civil War was, but then there was this huge Great Awakening. We're Methodist, so we had the whole camp meeting movement that happened after that. So as people talk about how difficult things are, you know, historically, there's some opportunity for us to think forward beyond the division. How do you see this moment, I guess, in comparison to that or to other moments historically?
Scott Black Johnston 06:18
Yeah. So one, I totally agree with you. There's opportunity here. But the first thing I think I would say is historically, the Great Awakenings were primarily fueled by churches, by religious movements, by preachers. And certainly, the Methodists played an absolutely critical role, especially in the Second Great Awakening. And the circuit riders, the expansion of, you know, the Methodist movement across this country is really, you know, inextricably woven into the Second Great Awakening.
Scott Black Johnston 07:04
So that's what makes the Great Awokening a somewhat different moment, I think, is that you've got many of the ethical and moral voices out there right now would say this is a non- religious movement as the first two were. This Great Awokening is, in some quarters, quite divorced from religious and church conversations. In fact, one of the moments that I quote in the book is a young African American activist in St. Paul, Minnesota, who announced, you know, that no longer was it necessary for the Black pastor to come and tell them what to do. This was a movement of the Black Lives Matter movement, and the response to the killing of George Floyd was an organic movement that had moved beyond the church. And it didn't need the church to guide its moral, you know, to provide a moral compass.
Scott Black Johnston 08:21
And I found that fascinating, because so much of my early study of the American church was focused on the Civil Rights Movement, and all the ways in which, you know, churches, especially of course, African American churches, lead the way in calling for social and moral change. And so it's interesting to have these pleas being made by people that are not so sure we want the church involved or certainly to be calling the shots anymore.
Chris McAlilly 09:05
You open the book with the, you know, the polarizing moment of Donald Trump's election, and then this this opportunity you had, or invitation that you had to go and pray with the newly elected president. Maybe for folks who haven't read the book, or don't know that moment in your ministry, maybe give the thumbnail sketch and then the reaction.
Scott Black Johnston 09:29
Yeah, real quick. Patrick O'Connor, who's a good friend of mine in ministry, he's a Presbyterian pastor who pastors First Presbyterian Church in Jamaica, Queens. He is the pastor of the church where Donald Trump was baptized, and also just by a weird coincidence, my own father was baptized. It's a fascinating church in that it has always been a sort of immigrant church. It's just that the groups of immigrants have changed radically over time. And so when my father and Donald Trump were youths , it was mostly a Scottish immigrant community. Donald Trump's mother was Scottish. My father's parents were both Scottish immigrants to this country. That's who was their First Presbyterian Church in Jamaica. Now, it's largely African American, Afro- Caribbean, Latino, Latina congregation, that my friend Patrick O'Connor pastors.
Scott Black Johnston 10:42
Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church where I pastor is literally catty corner across Fifth Avenue from Trump Tower. And while Donald Trump's never a member of my congregation, he did at one point in time, many years ago, before I was the pastor there, send some of his kids over there for Vacation Bible School. And so there was some connections. And we had reached out, taking a step back to the night of the election and in in 2016, we reached out to both camps, actually. Hillary Clinton was across the street, at the Peninsula Hotel for the election returns. And then Donald Trump was at the tower. So they literally were only a block apart as they were awaiting these returns to come in. I like to say I could throw a tennis ball out my office window and hit both buildings where the presidential candidates were waiting.
Eddie Rester 11:49
I don't think I realized that. Yeah.
Scott Black Johnston 11:51
Yeah, we invited both camps to come and pray in the chapel if they wanted, and seek any consultation with clergy. Neither one took us up on that, but we'd put the invitation out there. And then after Trump was elected, Patrick and I said, it is important, we believe, to reach out to this fellow. And we were concerned on one level, regarding some of the clergy who Trump had surrounded himself with, and we said, he needs a diversity of voices. So we just sent a letter and said, Hey, this is who we are. Patrick said, I'm the pastor of the church where you were baptized. And that Bible, which is--this will factor into the story--the Bible that you're going to be sworn in on was given to you by a woman who is still a member of this church.
Scott Black Johnston 11:54
And I said, I'm the pastor with the church catty corner across the street. You have at times identified as Presbyterian. We would like to come and pray with you. And we got a letter back that said, sure, come over. We went over. We had about 10 to 15 minutes with him about a week and a half before the inauguration. So he was President Elect at that time. And we talked to him briefly. And we prayed with him. The prayer has been printed on CNN and other blogs. I've got the content of the prayer.
Scott Black Johnston 12:49
And then things got kind of rough for Patrick and me. There were a lot of folk who questioned why we did it. Some suggested that we did it as a fame seeking exercise. Some suggested that whatever our reason was, we were giving sort of religious cover to a miscreant to who really, you know, was an awful person. And some said, glad you did it, you know, hope it helps. But there was some pretty rough reaction kind of in social media that Patrick and I received from clergy.
Scott Black Johnston 14:26
There's one clergy person who wrote and said, because our pictures showed up in the Christian Century magazine, there was one person who wrote and said, you know, I'm looking at your smiling faces in the Christian Century, and they make me want to vomit. And so that was sort of the beginning of some pretty rough emails that we got that just, you know, people were angry and hurt, scared. They couldn't believe Trump had been elected, and so if they had access, they were looking for somebody to just kind of go "waaaaaaah!" And we caught a lot of that.
Eddie Rester 15:09
Just thinking about what you just said, they were looking for somebody that they could, grind their ax on. Why do you think and why do you feel that right now we all have to have somebody to go after? It just seems like there's always got to be a scapegoat. There's this undercurrent of consistent anger that seems to exist right now. What do you see in that? Or how have you seen people overcome that or work through that even?
Scott Black Johnston 15:44
Eddie, I think that's a great question. And I do have a set of assumptions about this. And I'll share them. I mean, I honestly think that people feel largely powerless about the way in which the world is going, and the way in which political decisions are being made, the way in which laws are enacted or not. And so when they have an opportunity to hold forth to somebody that this see, rightly or wrongly, as somebody in a position of power or authority, they grab it, and they go for it. And they let you know.
Scott Black Johnston 16:29
And I think this has been happening to clergy all over this country, is that clergy have--one of the reasons why I think the last, you know, eight years, let me just say, have been so tough on America's clergy is because they've been getting hammered on because people don't have anywhere else to go, and their local clergy person is somebody who is sort of bound to listen to them, and they'll let them have it. And underneath that is something that's kind of precious. And it's the assumption that if if I can just get my clergy person focused in the right direction, then things will be different, because maybe people will listen to her or to him.
Scott Black Johnston 17:19
And, you know, I think that ship has probably sailed, but we don't have the authority that we had, you know, clergy don't have the authority within this country, within our churches that we serve that's anywhere near what it was, you know, 50 years ago. But there's still a remnant of serve that's anywhere near what it was, you know, 50 years ago. But there's still a remnant of hope, that maybe if my clergy person says the right thing, then it'll happen.
Eddie Rester 17:49 Yeah, all will be well.
Scott Black Johnston 17:50 Yeah.
Chris McAlilly 17:51
One of the ways you talk about the, I guess, the shift in authority, or the place of the church, or the authority of pastoral leadership and the culture is, with the phrase "decentered church." Maybe talk a little bit about what you mean, when you say "decentered church." And also, you know why that's not just a negative thing?
Scott Black Johnston 18:14
Yeah, I honestly don't think it is a negative thing at all. I think a couple of ways to think about this, but it does go back. We were talking earlier, before the podcast began, about Richard Niebhur who wrote a book called "Christ and Culture." And it really has to do with how you think a Christian person is supposed to engage the powers that be and the structures that are and some have said, well, we should accrued to ourselves political power. I don't think that that has worked too well over the course of Christian history, and I'm not just talking about, you know, the Moral Majority, I'm talking about all the way back through to the moments when Christianity and Rome were hand in glove. Those weren't necessarily the best years, the best theology coming out of the church.
Scott Black Johnston 19:11
And so I think that the earliest manifestations of the Christian church were the center, we were a persecuted people around the Mediterranean basin, who lived in communities that, to varying degrees, tolerated or not Christians in their midst. And at that time, when the Apostle Paul was planting churches that was, you know, an incredibly powerful time for the Gospel to be spread and for Christianity's growth and health. And so, you know, to be decentered means that you're not seeking the reins of power, but you're actually standing to the side and offering critique. And so, or not always just criticism, you know, sometimes it can be praise.
Scott Black Johnston 20:13
And I use art in that chapter, Chris, I use art as an example of what it means to be decentered. And I talk about how a painting in a room can influence the room and I talk about how two statues in Manhattan--that there's this marvelous story of the bull, charging bull, that was the statues in Manhattan--that there's this marvelous story of the bull, charging bull, that was the statue that was erected outside Wall Street. Everybody's got that image, I think in their mind of that big brass bull. People like to come and, you know, get their picture taken with the bull.
Eddie Rester 20:56
I got my picture taken with it. Yeah.
Scott Black Johnston 20:58
Excellent. Yeah. So you know, everybody's been. You know, right now, I think everybody wishes that there was an equally powerful bear there. And not sure they want their picture taken with that. But they put up another statue. A woman erected another statue in that same area, of a girl with her hands on her hips standing in front of the bull. And then there was this huge debate that came out. And the artist who sculpted the bull said that the statue of the of the girl was somehow devaluing, debasing the bull. And, you know, those sculptor who did the girl just said it's just, this is art, and it's interacting. My artist is interacting with your art, and people are having a conversation about it. What does it mean that there's this girl with her hands on her hips that seems to be staring down this massive, charging bull?
Scott Black Johnston 22:06
And to me, that's sort of a metaphor for what the church does. The church is sort of there at this moment, I think, in society's peripheral vision, and hopefully, what it's doing is telling a story that is helping us to think critically, creatively about who we are, and why we're here, and what we ought to be doing, and how we ought to be treating each other, and how we ought to be talking to each other, and what kind of things we ought to be caring about. And to me, that's sort of what the Gospel does. You get into relationship with Jesus Christ, and that's the road that he's gonna take you down, is considering those questions. Who is my neighbor? You can just spend the rest of your life on that question.
Scott Black Johnston 23:04
And that's what the church does best, I think, in society. So when it's decentered, it's not trying to grab the reins of power. It's trying to stand alongside those who might be trying to grab the reins of power and those who feel like the reins of power have been too long in those people's hands. And it's just adding to the conversation in the way that a piece of art does. And now, some might say, oh, that's just too small of a role for the church. But that sort of seems like what the disciples were. They weren't this big, grand institution that had any hopes of unseating Pilate or Herod or any of the other figures who are in control. And so...
Eddie Rester 24:00
I think that's, yeah, I think that's interesting, because most of us only know the church as we've grown up with it in America or the church that Constantine created and grew, which was a church based, you know, the church in the Roman government were very tight as the Catholic church became the Roman Catholic Church, and then the Orthodox Church as it moved to the east of the church, in the United States, which religious freedom became a big part of the story. So we've only known the story of the church being a dominant, powerful voice, but at its beginnings, you think about Paul in the early, they had no thought that they would ever, I don't think, they'd ever had any thought that they'd be able to have that kind of power or influence, but they stood off to the side and told the story that was compelling and knew and brought life. And I think that's part of the gift that we could give.
Scott Black Johnston 25:07 I totally agree.
Chris McAlilly 25:10
One of the things that you point to in the midst of this moment is just the virtues as a counterpoint to the cultural moment. Talk a little bit about why you're compelled by the virtues that come out of the broad Western tradition, going back to Aristotle, but then also specifically the way in which those get gathered up and kind of pass through the Christian tradition.
Scott Black Johnston 25:41
Yeah, I think what I've been doing in my own preaching and my own spiritual life is I've been looking for resources that help me and that help people that are asking me questions to
deepen our relationship with God and to actually shape the paths of the lives that we're on. And so the virtues to me, you know, I mean, I would guess that most Christian preachers have dabbled in the virtues at one point or another, which I think is a good thing. I honestly think they need to be constantly revisited, so that we can examine them. And to tell you the truth, probably the one that I had the most fun with, which surprised me, was temperance. And temperance tends to, you know, become one that we've just attached to do you or do you not drink alcohol, you know, and at what amount. And temperance to me is just such a wider thing. And I really enjoyed digging into that.
Scott Black Johnston 27:05
I'm so happy that Westminster John Knox allowed me to have illustrations in the book, because the Edward Burne-Jones painting of temperance, she's holding a jug of cool water and pouring it on a fire. That, to me, is something that I think our entire society needs right now. You mentioned earlier the amount of anger that's out there. There's so much anger, and everybody's angry about something and everybody's trying to assess whether other people's anger makes sense to them. And the prevalence of all this anger, much of it which is being called righteous anger, shuts down conversation, and shuts down the possibility of moving forward, of problem solving, on addressing challenging issues in relationships--in one on one relationships, in communities, and in the wider culture.
Scott Black Johnston 28:10
And so, to be temperate, to be one who brings calm and encouragement to listen and valuing of other sides and water on the flames, that is, to me a valuable, valuable thing that Christianity can bring to today's conversations. And I think it's, you know, if I want to go back to your earlier question, Chris, about being decentered, I think that there have been some losses in the Great Awokening. You know, when the Great Awokening says, "We don't need churches," I think the sad thing is, is that they still do. They need... We have been in the moral conversation for centuries. And things like temperance are something that we bring. Temperance is not necessarily, is probably, of the virtues, is probably the lowest grade in today's culture. Nobody thinks that being temperate is important. But without it, you know, where do we go? Just ceaseless conflict, civil war, you know, it's just...
Eddie Rester 29:43
A lot of rage is where is where it goes. So, your book really talks about holding this call to love our enemies and yet still seeking justice, I guess, in righteousness. So how do we begin to, the virtue of temperance, which is part of that is loving our enemies in a way that allows our enemies--who we've identified as enemies or against us--allows us beginning to move towards justice and righteousness. How does that play out?
Scott Black Johnston 30:22
Yeah, I think that's a wonderful question. I'm going to read you a quick quote here by a guy named Brant Hanson who wrote this book "Unoffendable." And he says, "relinquishing my right to anger does not mean accepting injustice. It means actively seeking justice, and loving mercy while walking humbly with God." And to me, there's a lot in that little phrase there. You know, one, is the assumption that for preachers talking about love your enemies, that they're sort of wishy washy, and they're not really taking the issues of the day seriously, because if you do take the issues of the day seriously, loving your enemies is an impossibility. Because what they think and want to do is going to potentially destroy the world.
Scott Black Johnston 31:22
It's a version of what, when I was in collegiate debate, we used to call the squirrel case. A squirrel case in debate is any case that ultimately devolves to Armageddon, you know: If you, do that--Armageddon. If you do that-- Armageddon. You know, it will eventually lead to Armageddon. And so we've got a lot of that going on up there now. And so if you really believe that, and then somebody says, "love your enemy," then you're like, :No. I don't have time to love because I need to stop Armageddon from happening." And what Hansen says, is okay. Hold on. Calm down a minute. I'm not asking you to give up your sense of what is just and what is not. In fact, I want you to work for it in powerful and effective ways. But if you hope to bring about any change in the world--and I think Martin Luther King realized this in spades--it's not going to be anger and hate that's going to get the job done. King said the only thing that changes hateful hearts is love.
Scott Black Johnston 32:38
And so I think, you know, King is going back to Jesus on that, which is, of course, where the whole love your enemies comes from. It's the most radical challenge that Jesus puts in front of believers. But it's critically important for us at all times, but especially right now. If we don't love those with whom we disagree, it is immediately apparent to them. It shuts down conversation, and it ends up isolating us in a little angry silo, without ever moving the needle on getting things done.
Chris McAlilly 33:26 Go for it, Eddie.
Eddie Rester 33:27
I just gotta say, it feels like--I'm gonna speak from our own experience here, when I've had those people I've disagreed with, and you know, the voice of Jesus pops into my head: Love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. Love your neighbor as yourself. It feels like you're saying it's almost offensive. But Jesus, there's this person here. On the other hand, you know, I remember when President Obama got elected, the world was gonna end. When President Trump got elected, the world was going to end. It's that Armageddon piece that I think, if we can ever step back from to allow the voice of Jesus to speak to us.
Eddie Rester 34:15
So for folks listening today, and it may not be big political issues where they have big disagreements, maybe, you know, their neighbor across the street that keeps chopping their trees down or blowing their leaves into their yard. What would you offer just a way of tools or way of thinking about folks that might get classified as as enemy or other? How do we reframe that from a practical perspective?
Scott Black Johnston 34:45
So, I'm gonna go Buddha for a second here, because actually I've got a few friends that dabble in Buddhism and somehow the notion--I love your question, because reframing is exactly what we need to do. And so there's a Buddhist author who describes a scenario: You're pulling into a parking lot. There's a space that's opening up. You put your left hand turn signal on. You're getting ready to turn into the space as soon as the car that's departing it leaves. And at that moment, as that car is leaving, another car comes whipping around the corner and zips into the spot. And you're angry. You're like, "What the heck?!" You know, I'm waiting here patiently, I'm following the rules, and this person does that.
Scott Black Johnston 35:39
And so, imagine says the Buddhist, imagine that the whole scenario is the same. But this time, instead of another little car comes around and zips into the spot, it's a cow steps into the spot. And how does your reaction change? You're like, huh, how strange is that? A cow is in my spot. And it changes. Instead of it being anger, you're more like, "What an odd situation." Let me get out of my car and go over and see if I can deal with the cow. Now, I'm not like, you know, I think just the frame of mind that we're in as to everything is antagonistic and we need to bash on each other to get our own way, to get our own ideas advanced, to get our own finances advanced, to get our kids into the best spots, all these things. It's everything sets up as a conflict. And the Buddhist says, but what if it's not like that? What if each opportunity is something to sort of turn your head to the side and go, huh. This is an interesting moment. Let me see. Let me find out more. Let me walk over there. Let me engage, not belligerently.
Scott Black Johnston 37:12
And so reframing I think, if we can do that, as Christians, is we can say, okay, you know, the way that I do it all the time is when somebody's coming at me hard. Early in my ministry, I would get defensive fast, and I still can if I'm having a bad day, if I didn't eat my cheerios in the morning, if I'm hungry, whatever. I'm not perfect at this. But I do try to look at people who are coming at me aggressively and think, all right, what is the source of your suffering? What's the underlying thing here that has got you so worked up? Can I see that? Will you share that with me? Why is this at this aggrieved level?
Scott Black Johnston 38:06
And one of the things I think I've talked about this in the book, there's a fellow who, from Brooklyn who went after the 2016 election, he's just like, I want to understand America. And he went, he got on an Amtrak train. And he traveled all the way across America. And he said, the Amtrak dining car is the thing that's going to save America. He said, because if you're traveling, you go there, and you sit together. And he said, especially if you're traveling alone, you sit down, all the tables are four, and you sit down with three other people that you don't know, and they're all from very differing backgrounds.
Scott Black Johnston 38:47
And he said, you know, there were people there who said things that I didn't agree with at all, he said, but every single person that I ate with on the Amtrak dining car, I found at least one thing that I found admirable about them. One thing that, you know, was endearing, important. It could be how they felt about their kids. It could be the picture of their dog that they showed me. It could be, you know, a hobby that they were pursuing. There are plenty of things that you know, social media cuts us directly, and we haven't talked about that yet. But social media oftentimes cuts the fun stuff out and gets us right to the fighting stuff. And the algorithms are designed to do exactly that, to connect us around grievances and not around loves. And that's one of the things that you know, somebody who's like on the Amtrak dining car is trying to get past. Get past the grievances to the shared love.
Eddie Rester 40:01
I feel like we had a year and a half of we only engaged people on screens and through social media. And I don't think I mean, everybody feels like COVID is in the rearview mirror. I don't think the impact of COVID is in the rearview mirror. I'm not sure we've stitched ourselves back think the impact of COVID is in the rearview mirror. I'm not sure we've stitched ourselves back together where we can look at somebody on the Amtrak car and sit down with them and eat and not judge them. Because, well, they're gonna be... They look this way. So they're going to have a different take. And I'm going to approach this with a sense of angst, or I'm going to be looking for a point to disagree on. Chris we botched you out of the conversation lately. I didn't mean to do that. I'm sorry.
Chris McAlilly 40:45
That's all right. You're excited. You just have that energy about you today. So I just have to let you have enough room and space in the conversation to be you, man. That's all good.
Eddie Rester 40:55 Yeah. What have you got?
Chris McAlilly 41:00
Oh, I just wonder, Scott, as you engage, I know that preaching is a really important way in which you view the world. It's a part of, an important part, of your ministry. As you are preaching now, this material is, you know, a couple of years old or a few years old. As you're preaching now, kind of what are some of the themes of your preaching or as you look forward, some of the things that you're hoping to bring into the pulpit to help shape and kind of orient your people?
Scott Black Johnston 41:35
Yeah. So right now, I'm in the midst of a 12 week series on creation, it's entitled "Holy Ground." And what I'm trying to do, where I think that fits in to your very good question and to our overall conversation is, I'm trying to put the things that I'm talking about in the book into practice, in addressing one of, I think, the critical issues of the time, which is, you know, climate change, and care for the planet. And I realize that it's a controversial issue. I spent the first four weeks of the series because of that, just, you know, to some, I'm sure it was sort of like too mild-mannered, because I became convinced over the summer as I was thinking about it, that I'm not doing anybody a disservice by just going in every week during the series and telling a horror story about some aspect of the environment that's messed up. And you know, aren't we terrible?
Scott Black Johnston 42:49
So I spent the first four weeks talking about scriptural texts that connect us to the world, talking about, you know, Genesis, and God's saying, "It's good." Talking about God's love for the world. Talking about the way in which in Colossians, the kind of cosmic Christ that Paul is talking about there comes to reconcile not just humanity to God, but all creation. So Christ, I said, you know, Jesus is the original tree hugger because he has been sent by God to reconcile everything to God. And that is...
Scott Black Johnston 43:39
So I'm just getting people to think theologically about it, to think, okay, what is God's relationship to creation? What is my relationship? And people have been very receptive. I asked people to tell me a story of you as a child in the natural world. And the people wrote in. I got more email responses to that inquiry than anything I've ever done in ministry.
Scott Black Johnston 44:09
People were just wanting to talk about their connection to the natural world. And it was vastly different. Some people were talking about an animal, some people just their backyards, some people the fields of a farm, some people visits to grandparents' place, some people was beaches, some people was mountains, some people was creeks. You know, it was amazing, just to get them talking about that. And then I put that together with some of the scriptural stuff, but also with some of the, you know, more recent studies.
Eddie Rester 44:10 Really.
Scott Black Johnston 44:44
Did you know, according to Nature Magazine, that North American people spend 87% of their days inside, on average. Now there are plenty of people that work outside who affect that average the other way. So think about that. Think about, you know, what that does to humans, when we're spending so much time inside. It's just, we're not engaging with a beauty that the Psalms, for example, are constantly interacting with and seeing as evidence of God's not only care for creation and love for the world, but as signs of God's pattern for how to be in relationship to each other and to all creation.
Scott Black Johnston 45:46
And so I just, I'm telling you all this, because it's, to me, there's a way to get at this extremely important and often controversial issue that starts in a place that most people can actually access. And I really wanted to take the time and build those foundational blocks first, before... Now, this coming Sunday, I'm preaching on Leviticus 25, and Jubilee and Luke 4, and Jesus saying, you know, I've come to proclaim the year the Lord's favor. And I'm doing that, and then I'm going to wrap that together with some conversation about how environmental issues often hit the poorest people the hardest. In fact, they almost always hit the poorest people the hardest. And so, you know, to build in a justice component to it. If I would have started there, and I mean, that's the only place that some people think that I should be in this conversation.
Eddie Rester 46:52 Right.
Scott Black Johnston 46:53
But my argument is if you start there and just bring the hammer, people will shut it off and walk away. So I'm trying. I don't know whether I'm successful. I never know whether, you know- -like every other preacher, are my words landing? Are they making a difference? You know.
Eddie Rester 47:13
Are they sleeping or meditating? Yeah.
Scott Black Johnston 47:16
Yeah. I mean, I did this two weeks ago, and now they're saying this at my board meeting. What's going on?
Eddie Rester 47:25
I think about your approach to preaching, and I think even about the approach you've been talking about already, which is if we start in the place of where God, how God calls us to be and live in our relationships, then it shifts our ability to have the harder conversations. I think there's a parallel there, between what you're trying to get at with your book, but also, with how you preach. And I think we think we have to jump to the 140 character tweet, or the 280 character tweet immediately, and we've lost that sense of God calls us to something.
Eddie Rester 48:06
This Sunday, I'm preaching on the rich man and Lazarus. And I didn't realize this, but it's Lazarus is the only named Person in any of Jesus's parables. And there's the sense of, the rich man never, never knew his name. Never could figure out why the name was important. And it's because they were both children of Abraham. And I just, you know, this is so for me, I know-- we've shut Chris out of conversation--but this is one of the things that for me, in my life and my ministry, it just drives me... I don't want to say insane. That's the Armageddon word. But just, I just can't figure out why followers of Jesus can't lead with Jesus and then have the hard conversations. It feels like we'll get to Jesus after we figure out if I can agree with you or not.
Scott Black Johnston 49:05
That's, in a nutshell, that's what this is all about. And I think that's the moment we're in. And it's also why our society needs the church, because where are the places? Where are the places it's also why our society needs the church, because where are the places? Where are the places that have any hope of having conversations across political lines right now in our society? And it's always been the church. I mean you know, maybe it's the local bar and the bowling hall, you know, but I think those are just diminished. And I think the risk of this moment is that the church is becoming one where it cannot happen. And it's so hard. I mean, you know, I mean, every church I know, every pastor has experienced congregant loss over the last last few years, because you, Pastor, are not saying the same thing that my favorite op-ed writers say.
Scott Black Johnston 50:10
And the case that I'm trying to make to people right now about that is if you expect that the Church will fail, and it should fail. And we are playing a different game. We are not trying to do what politicians are trying to do. We're something different. And it's as different as football is from baseball. And if you go to a football game and judge it by the rules of baseball, it will make no sense to you. You know, it will be like, "You don't know what you're doing," you'll scream at the players. And I sometimes feel like that's the way it is for pastors, that people are screaming, "You don't know what you're doing!" And we're like, "No, no, no. You don't understand. We're not playing football."
Chris McAlilly 51:01
Yeah, we're playing a different game. I think that's a good place to set down the conversation. Scott, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for writing this book, "Elusive Grace," and for your ministry. We really appreciate your presence on the podcast today and in the conversation.
Scott Black Johnston 51:22
Blessings, grace, and peace to you. I have ejoyed being here today.
Eddie Rester 51:26
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
Chris McAlilly 51:35
If you would like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]