“Better Ways To Read the Bible” with Zach Lambert
Show Notes:
Zach Lambert wants to give you a better way to interpret the Bible, so he wrote the book on it. In Better Ways to Read the Bible: Transforming a Weapon of Harm Into a Tool of Healing, Zach helps us deconstruct four common lenses for reading the Bible that lead to harm and then offers four new lenses that promote healing and wholeness.
Zach is the Lead Pastor and founder of Restore Austin, a church in urban Austin, Texas. He is also the co-founder of the Post Evangelical Collective where he serves as a board member. Zach and his wife, Amy, met each other in the 6th grade, fell in love at 17, and got married at 21. They love watching live music, discovering local Mexican food places, and playing with their two boys.
Resources:
Buy Better Ways to Read the Bible on Amazon or Barnes & Noble
Learn more about Restore Austin
Follow Zach on Instagram
Transcript:
Chris McAlilly 00:00
I'm Chris McAlilly.
Eddie Rester 00:02
And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight. Today our guest is Reverend Zach Lambert.
Zach is the lead pastor and the founder of Restore Church, a church in Austin, Texas. He's also
the founder of the Post-Evangelical Collective, currently pursuing his doctorate, where you
pursued your doctorate, at Duke Divinity School. Chris, what did you take away from today?
Chris McAlilly 00:22
Yeah, the Bible is central to our faith and to church, but also, just, it's in the culture and people
come at it in different directions. Zach grew up in the church and grew up in a particular way of
reading the Bible, and then began to think about it differently later in life, and went through a
process, he'll describe it, of perhaps deconstruction, but then found a way to reconstruct, an
understanding, a very faithful and deep understanding, of engagement with the Bible. And he
talks about that journey and some of the things he learned along the way. What was your
takeaway?
Eddie Rester 00:45
Yeah. He's written an incredible book,"Better Ways to Read the Bible." He gives four lenses
that are not helpful or can be harmful when we approach the Bible, and four lenses that he
believes bring healing and hope to reading the Bible. I think for me, it's just the awareness,
over and over again, that we all approach the Bible with an interpretive lens. Nobody reads the
Bible just for the words on the page. We all bring something to it. We've been shaped by the
preachers in our lives, by what we see and hear on social media or TV, the hymns that we sing.
We all bring something to Scripture, and it's important for us to be aware of that. I think for me,
that's one of the things, reading the book and talking to him, just to be aware that there are
implications to the interpretive lenses we bring to Scripture.
Chris McAlilly 01:47
Yeah, you may agree with what you hear as you read the book or as you listen to Zach. You
may wrestle with some of the things that he says. That's great. We think that the Bible is
something to be wrestled with. You may agree with us. Some weeks, you may disagree. That's
awesome. We're looking for a faith that's growing and understanding as individuals and as
churches. And I don't know, I just think it's through these conversations that I get a better
understanding and picture of what it is that I really believe. And the thing that I'll take away
from this conversation is this question of how to read the Bible towards flourishing. I had never
heard it put particularly like that. I think that's great. That's something that we can do as
individuals, as preachers, as faithful people in the world. What are you going to take away?
What's your...
Eddie Rester 02:39
Well, I think the final takeaway, just to be aware as a preacer that I'm I'm giving people lenses
at times. I think that's important for anybody who leads a Sunday School class or a small group
or a church, just remember that we're also helping people develop those lenses, even if they're
not thinking about them. So yeah, great episode.
Chris McAlilly 03:00
Yeah. Awareness that you are providing lenses is the first step. That's the way to way to get
better at it.
Eddie Rester 03:07
Great episode. I hope you enjoy it. Share it with someone who maybe struggles with scripture
or how to think about Scripture. We're always glad you're in the journey with us, thankful that
you're listening, and look forward to hearing what you think about this episode.
Chris McAlilly 03:19
I just want to say, I just want to say, right off the top, I'll make a comment about Eddie being
from Mississippi. I'm just a little... You know, I... You can be from Texas.
Eddie Rester 03:30
Well, I, you know, I'm a Mississippian. Will always be a Mississippian. I'm currently, you know, I
don't want to say in exile. That's not the right word.
Chris McAlilly 03:40
You're a current Texan.
Eddie Rester 03:41
I'm in Texas now and talking to another a Texan. So.
Chris McAlilly 03:43
So if you live in Texas, you've never heard the podcast, just assume that other people in Texas
need to hear the podcast and share it with everyone in Texas. All right.
Eddie Rester 03:51
There you go.
Chris McAlilly 03:52
Good to talk.
Chris McAlilly 03:52
[INTRO] Leadership today demands more than technical expertise. It requires deep wisdom to
navigate the complexity of a turbulent world, courage to reimagine broken systems, and
unwarranted hope to inspire durable change.
Eddie Rester 04:09
As Christ-centered leaders in churches, nonprofits, the academy, and the marketplace, we all
carry the weight of cultivating communities that reflect God's kingdom in a fragmented world.
Chris McAlilly 04:20
But this weight wasn't meant to be carried alone. The Christian tradition offers us centuries of
wisdom if we have the humility to listen and learn from diverse voices.
Eddie Rester 04:30
That's why The Weight exists: to create space for the conversations that challenge our
assumptions, deepen our thinking, and renew our spiritual imagination.
Chris McAlilly 04:39
Faithful leadership in our time requires both conviction and curiosity, rootedness in tradition,
and responsiveness to a changing world.
Eddie Rester 04:48
So whether you're leading a congregation, raising a family, teaching students, running a
nonprofit, or bringing faith into your business, join us as we explore the depth and richness of
Christ-centered leadership today. Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
Eddie Rester 05:05
We're here today with Zach Lambert, the pastor of Restore in Austin. Zach, it's great to be with
you today.
Zach Lambert 05:10
So good to be with you. Eddie and Chris, I'm excited. Thanks for inviting me on.
Eddie Rester 05:14
Yeah, I'm a current Texan, recent Texan, but you're, you are a Texan.
Chris McAlilly 05:19
Is that what you're calling yourself now, a current Texan?
Eddie Rester 05:22
I'm a current Texan, I think.
Chris McAlilly 05:22
I don't think you can claim Texas. You've only been there a couple months. You're a
Mississippian that's living in Texas.
Chris McAlilly 05:25
I'm a Mississippian, okay, I just want to say current Texan. I'm not... I don't have a belt. I don't
have a hat.
Chris McAlilly 05:33
Zach is a real Texan. He's been there for over a decade. So it is, you know...
Eddie Rester 05:38
Yeah, so, Zach, tell us a little bit about you.
Zach Lambert 05:40
Yeah, yeah, I was born and raised here in Austin, where I am back again. And yeah, we started
our church, Restore, about a decade ago. We'll turn 10 in February. And yeah, I've got a wife.
We met in sixth grade, started dating at 17, got married at 21 and we've got two kiddos that
just started school again, a fifth grader and a first grader, and so, yeah, right in the middle of
young kids and growing church and all kinds of stuff. And then I just had a book come out last
week. Yeah, it's a busy but fun time.
Chris McAlilly 06:10
When did you... Oh, sorry to interrupt you, Eddie, you go for it.
Eddie Rester 06:13
No, you go ahead, Chris, yeah.
Chris McAlilly 06:14
Yeah. No, I was just gonna ask, when did you discover the Bible? Like, how old were you? Were
you a kid? Or was it later in life.
Zach Lambert 06:20
Yeah, I was definitely as a kid. I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, and it was a very kind
of fundamentalist version of faith that I grew up in, and it was really central, not just to my life,
but to basically everyone that I knew. My parents were in vocational ministry. They ran
something called Fellowship of Christian Athletes my entire life. They ran the Central Texas
chapter. My grandparents were early founding members of Southern Baptist mega church here
in Austin. I went to Christian School. We were at church three times a week. I mean, everything
that we did was kind of in this faith circle.
Zach Lambert 06:56
But what ended up happening to me was, even as a young kid, I had a lot of questions and
struggles and doubts, with scripture, with faith as it was being presented, especially kind of this
big, angry God in the sky who was just waiting to smite me for stepping out. And I really
struggled with it. So the story I opened the book with is actually me being formally kicked out
of my youth group as a sixth grader for asking too many questions and voicing doubts and
causing other kids to doubt their faith, was what the youth pastor said, and so he said,
"You can't come back anymore."
Eddie Rester 07:29
As an aside, recently, Chris and I knew a kid in sixth grade, in confirmation, who asked too
many questions, our very first confirmation class. He's been out in Dallas. Those kids do grow
up and turn out okay.
Zach Lambert 07:43
Usually, yeah.
Eddie Rester 07:43
Yeah, usually, so that's kind of your early story. You've written this book called "Better Ways to
Read the Bible," is the name of the book. Was that really... You told that story. Is that the
genesis of the book? What really inspired you to say, this is a book I want to write. This is a
book I feel like I have something to say here.
Zach Lambert 08:07
Yeah, it was definitely not the genesis of the book. If anything, it was my kind of villain origin
story in a lot of ways, where I was pretty done with faith and Scripture altogether. I put the
Bible aside and did not engage with it for a very long time, but when I picked it up again, what I
what ended up happening is I started reading the Gospel accounts of Jesus's life, and what I
realized was that in the churches I grew up in, I knew a lot about the kind of beginning and end
of Jesus's story, so like Christmas and Easter, but we talked very little about the actual life and
teaching and what I would call the way of Jesus.
Zach Lambert 08:43
I remember reading the Sermon on the Mount for the first time and being like, how have I never
heard this preached? Mostly because it was pretty counterintuitive to what was actually being
taught or prescribed as the version of Christianity. I grew up in something like turn the other
cheek, or, you know, we're most like God, we're peacemaking, or the meek will inherit the
earth. Stuff like that. Didn't actually support this kind of militant, masculine version of faith that
I was given as a kiddo. And so I understood why we didn't talk about those things. But when I
did end up reading them, I really made this decision of, well, if being a Christian is following this
Jesus, this kind of radical, revolutionary, all-inclusive Jesus, then I want to do that. And if this
place, this thing called scripture is where I can find out more and more about him and what it
looks like to try to have a deeper relationship with this God incarnate in Christ, then I want to
go deeper into it. So that really started the journey of kind of diving back into the Bible.
Zach Lambert 09:39
And then we started our church here in Austin, and I had done just a tremendous amount of,
you know, over the years of reading and interpretation and seminary and all that stuff. And we
really trying to do something purposefully a little bit different when we started Restore. Even
the name, it was all about kind of restoring people's faith in Jesus and the church when so
many of them had lost it, had church trauma, spiritual hurt, all that kind of stuff. And so we
were re-engaging with even familiar stories in new ways, right? And so a lot of times I'd finish a
sermon and we do a Q and A time, or I just be talking with people in the lobby, and they would
say, "How did you get that interpretation?" or 'Where did you hear it?" And I didn't feel like I
had a great resource to kind of hand people and say, not just how do you engage with some
problem passages, but what's a more holistic framework for healthier biblical interpretation on
kind of a very lay, practical level.
Zach Lambert 10:32
There were, like, academic works and things like that, but didn't feel like I had that resource
that I could just hand over. And so people were like, "You should write something." And so I
kind of put the framework together and tested it out. I was teaching a seminary class at the
time and doing some other things, tested it out in a few different spaces, and it just got a lot of
like, "this is good, make it more robust, lean into it more." And so that's kind of how the book
ended up developing.
Eddie Rester 10:54
And you talk a lot about, in those conversations you had at Restore with people who had kind of
struggled struggling with faith, or walked away from faith. How many of them, their story came
back to either "I didn't see people living the Bible that they were trying to teach me," or they
had been taught so many harmful ways to read the Bible that they just couldn't live a faith that
was there. And I appreciated that honesty, because it was also coupled with how many people
have truly just walked away from the faith, how many people have quit reading the Bible. And
how did you kind of pull all those threads together? How do you see all that kind of in this
moment of the church? How's all that playing out?
Zach Lambert 11:38
Well, I think we're probably really similar in this, Eddie, that at the end of the day, whether
we're doing a podcast or writing a book or whatever, we're local church pastors, you know, and
that's what matters most to me, is being able to help people along their spiritual journey at
Restore and then, you know, through online spaces and other things, but at the end of the day,
that's, that's my hope, my calling. And so really, I saw it all coming together as this is just
hopefully another resource to help people do that. I don't really have aspirations of, like,
becoming an author, speaker, you know, circuit rider person. I really want to just be a local
church pastor that also gets to give some resourcing to the broader church to help them work
through this process of coming back to church, coming back to faith, re-engaging with
scripture.
Zach Lambert 12:27
And I mean, I'd even love to hear from you, man, as you continue to navigate, especially as
you've now settled in Dallas, and you're navigating a new scene, a new place where people
have, their own hang ups. I, one thing that I say a lot to our pastoral staff team is, you know,
we almost never encounter somebody in neutral. We almost always encounter people at a
deficit. You know, they have some kind of negative experience or exposure to church, faith,
Bible, whatever. Is that your experience too, and how are y'all navigating it?
Eddie Rester 13:02
Yeah, I think so. I think we, and Chris, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this in Oxford, too. But I
think where we are right now is we're getting a lot of those church hurt folks that are coming
particularly to one of our services, that... Really, kind of, that's their vibe that that's... People,
they go out to a lot of places around Dallas on the weekends to invite people. And so it's
created this sense of "come here and just try again." Also I think that there's a story I was
reading this past week, I can't remember who it was, but basically they said that it would be
better for folks in some foreign country to hear Handel for the first time, rather than the people
in England, because the people in England mishear him, instead of the people in Africa would
hear him for their... Anyway, can't remember the real story. It was something like that.
Eddie Rester 13:58
But just the sense of, I think sometimes we deal with people who have misheard the Bible for
so long that that's where they start, and so they're scared sometimes to talk about Scripture.
They don't want to read Scripture. I think that they pull back some, sometimes, from trying to
engage. And I wonder if some of the trouble we have getting people in groups to really talk and
dig into Scripture these days is because people are like, "I don't know that I want to deal with that."
Chris, what do you think?
Chris McAlilly 14:32
I mean, I have a lot of thoughts. I think I probably had firmer convictions around all these things
a few years ago than I do now. I think I'm more, I feel like I'm in a posture of trying to be just
more, just open to the way in which people come to the church. I think, I do think you're right. I
think there are a lot of people, we've talked about this on the podcast a lot, that there are
people who grew up in a religious context. Maybe that religious context offered a more kind of
narrow perspective or view, and maybe it lacked a kind of theological range. And then they find
in a more, I don't know, in a more generous environment, that their questions are welcomed, or
they can wrestle with scripture, maybe ask questions back of the text.
Chris McAlilly 15:23
And we've had, you know, other people come to mind, other other conversations we've had.
We released a recent episode with Amy-Jill Levine, who is a Jewish New Testament scholar who,
you know, looks at Jesus for everyone as really kind of asking questions of Jesus that maybe
you wouldn't hear in a more, I don't know, conservative or evangelical context. And that's a lot
of people in Mississippi, for instance, who come to college and maybe for the first time, they're
getting a little taste of freedom, and they're kind of navigating all right, what do I actually
believe?
Chris McAlilly 15:57
But then I think they're just so many of the people that I think of in this context, that don't ever
interface with the church at all, and so I find myself thinking that we need more paths of access
to the church. And I do think for us, it's the recovery community is kind of the path of access
where there's an intersection between a deep desire something about the way the world is, or
the way I am, or the way we are is broken. And kind of everybody would acknowledge that on
some level, you know, in a family system, or in a political context. And then maybe at that
place, bridges can be built to the resources, the deep, ancient, beautiful, true, good, spiritual
resources the church has always offered.
Chris McAlilly 16:46
But within the context of this conversation about restoration and healing and wholeness, which
I see as kind of the center point of what you guys are trying to do in Austin with with Restore, I
wonder, you know, I would be interested in, like, super practically, not just like, what's the
framework of the Bible, but how does it play out within the context of groups that you're
gathering at the church? Is it something that everybody's engaged in the Bible that's a heavy
focus of the church, or is it more, "Let's get you in groups where you belong." You talk about
what's going on, and then you lead people in this deeper journey from the pulpit, or, you know,
in your teaching, or how do you think about it? How do you integrate the Bible into the life of
your community?
Zach Lambert 17:29
Yeah, that's a great question. I think we, you know, similar to what you said about finding
various avenues and on-ramps for folks, we've tried to create a multiplicity of opportunities for
engagement. So we realize that a lot of it is dependent on life stage. For folks you know, if you
maybe you've got a young family, both of you are working full time, young kids in activities
like, you know, a full hour and a half Bible on and a week night is just not something that's
going to make it onto your calendar. And so then, how are we doing? Maybe twice a month,
social centric groups for folks like that.
Zach Lambert 18:07
But then others, depending on life phase or desire, really do want to go deep. And so we've
offered, like, summer seminary classes, which are basically just like short six week things
where we go really deep into a concept. So I've done a couple around biblical interpretation.
We've done bunches, all different kinds of ones. But also, I mean, we still are pretty, like, you
know, this can also happen from the pulpit, and it should happen from the pulpit. And so we do
not just teaching from scripture, but also, like, outlined lenses from scripture, and gone deeper
into broader biblical interpretation stuff. We've got a real smart group, and they really are
interested in stuff like this, but it's creative ways to find time for them to engage with it, I think
is the challenge.
Eddie Rester 18:53
I preached about reading scripture, and I want to get to the lenses in just a second, but I
preached about reading scripture this past Sunday. And one of the one of the things that I think
Rowan Williams says is that for the vast majority of history, Scripture was always read in a
group. And I think that we forget that sometimes, that the teaching, from whether it's the pulpit
or in a group, is really how people have always, historically accessed the Bible. This idea that
we get to sit and interpret on our own is really pretty recent if you want to talk about, maybe
1780, 1790, where Bibles got affordable to the present. It's been a short ride historically that
that's happened.
Chris McAlilly 19:47
I was listening to conversation the other day talking about the decline of the novel as a social
and cultural artifact and factor in American culture now compared to, you know, 25, 50 years
ago. And, you know, part of it is just that people don't read. You know, people are not. We're
moving in the direction, the culture is more visual, more oral. You know, podcasts are
flourishing, videos are flourishing. And so people are not just sitting down and reading a text, I
think.
Chris McAlilly 20:15
And it's hard. It's not an easy book to read. And then to your point, you know, I just think that
basic point that the Bible is there and it has to be interpreted, like, that's a very basic point, but
it's one that sometimes people take for granted. And I appreciate that one's lens, you know,
this idea, this concept of a lens that you bring to the text, and that there could be lenses that
could be more or less problematic. Maybe for a moment, just kind of give us an overview of the
problematic lenses. Pick your poison. What are the poisonous ways in which people read the
Bible?
Zach Lambert 20:55
Well, yeah, building off both of your points there, I will say I really started out with these two
fundamental truths. So one of them is that the what is the Bible? So the Bible is not a book. The
Bible is a collection of books and stories. You know, it's number of diverse authors written off
over a couple thousand years across three continents, three languages, you know, at least 10
genres of literature represented there, songs. I mean, all kinds of stuff, right? So it really is this
broader collection. We flattened it and we bound it together as one book. But it's really not, you
know. And so that's fundamental truth number one.
Zach Lambert 21:18
And then Chris, to your point, fundamental truth number two is we are all interpreting it. We
are not the original audience of the text. We read the shoulder over the original audience of the
text, and the truth is, even the original audience, to Eddie's point, debated in groups what
these things meant. They wrestled through it. They talked through it. Somebody would get, a
local church would get a letter from Paul, it would be read aloud, and they would talk about it.
They would ask questions, they would wrestle. And so those are the two kind of fundamental
truths that it's all built on.
Zach Lambert 21:57
And then from there, my thesis really is okay. So we're all interpreting this complex collection
of texts. Even just reading it is an act of interpretation. Even translating it is an act of
interpretation. So we're all interpreting it. And again, my thesis is there are better ways than
others to interpret it. There are better sets of criteria than others. And so what I try to do is
outline these four harmful lenses that a lot of people might have been given connected to
biblical interpretation. How do we identify and discard those and replace them with these four
healthy lenses?
Zach Lambert 22:21
So the four harmful lenses are literalism, which is, again, this kind of flattening of the text, so
it's reading every scripture, every verse, as if it has to be, you know, historically, scientifically,
literally true in our 21st Century, post enlightenment understanding of things like history and
science. Apocalypse is the second one, which is reading everything through the lens of kind of
end times, judgment, fear, eternal, conscious torment and hell, violence rather than renewal
and restoration.
Eddie Rester 22:59
I love what you what you say, "It's all going to burn anyway."
Zach Lambert 23:02
That's right.
Eddie Rester 23:02
Is that view. It doesn't really matter.
Zach Lambert 23:05
Yeah, yeah. And you know that obviously has massive implications for things like creation care
and stuff. You know what? I heard that all the time growing up. Well, why do we need to
recycle? It's all going to burn anyway. You know, who cares? Right? That's the second one.
Zach Lambert 23:17
The third one is moralism, which, again, is this kind of flattening of the text into just a right or
wrong list, just a rule book. And this is often used to control behavior and applied very
selectively. And then the final one is hierarchy, which really is leveraging scripture to prop up
these power structures that elevate some and diminish others, usually based on things like
gender, race, socioeconomic status, sexual orientation, things like that. Saying,
"God desires for these people to be in charge, to flourish and for these people to be subjugated or
subservient."
Zach Lambert 23:49
So my hope is that people would through, and I give examples of stories, but also examples of
texts, how they were weaponized, all throughout those first four chapters. And then I get into
the healthier lenses. And let me say one more thing before the healthier lenses part, related to
local church stuff that at Restore, we talk a lot about how we do both deconstruction and
reconstruction. You know, how we do both triage and transformation? So people sometimes
come in and they need to deconstruct some things, right? Like Eddie, you were talking about
this earlier, they come in with, like, all they know are really harmful ways, and so they've just
put it aside. So they need to have these harmful things deconstructed. They need triage,
immediate attention. But then the hope is that they get to a place where then they can rebuild
and start, you know, doing something better, experiencing that transformation.
Eddie Rester 24:40
One of the women, and this would go under the literalism lens, had been taught her entire life
that wives should be subject to their husbands, and so she endured unbelievable abuse. A
husband who continued to cheat on her, yet everybody in her circle was telling her, well, you've
got to forgive him, you've got to be subject to him. And so even the very act of standing up for
herself and saying, "Do I have to do that?" was years of getting to that point. And beyond that,
she really had to spend a lot of time taking all of that apart because it infected. The wound was
very deep. And I think what I appreciate in these lenses that you lay out is you really get to the
depth of the infection, of what harm they cause. Even when people don't set out to use them
with harm. They set out to use them because they won't want to follow Jesus.
Zach Lambert 25:42
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I do think there is a group of deeply nefarious people
who have purposefully grabbed the Bible, Christianity, you know, but I think the vast majority of
folks who would maybe ascribe to these harmful lenses are doing so because that's what
they've been taught being faithful looks like. That's what you've been taught being a Christian
looks like. And so, yeah, how do we have a lot of grace for those kinds of folks, while also trying
to demonstrate a better way with better outcomes?
Eddie Rester 26:08
Right. Yeah, you know, I think about the hierarchy lens, how that continues to play out,
particularly online.
Zach Lambert 26:22
Oh, gosh.
Eddie Rester 26:23
When people are responding to something and they veer right into something that's anti-
semitic or something racist or something and they don't understand, or maybe they just have
never been challenged enough to think you're reading the scripture which you're quoting here.
It's actually leading you to say, well, this type of person is closer, starts out closer to God than
this type of person. And talk a little bit about that lens, maybe particularly. How do we we begin
to break that apart?
Zach Lambert 27:07
Yeah, well, there's a number of different examples that I use in the book. One that I don't
actually use, but I think is a helpful one that's pretty old, is the curse of Ham, which you might
be familiar with, you probably are familiar with. You know, it's basically this, this wild story in
the Old Testament, where Noah gets really drunk and falls asleep naked, and his so Ham finds
him first, and he's like, "Oh my gosh, Dad's naked." He goes and gets his brothers. He's like,
"Dad got drunk and fell asleep naked." His brothers come in, and they go in, like, back first, so
they don't see him naked, and they put the blanket over him, or whatever.
Eddie Rester 27:44
It's not a passage that Chris is going to preach on.
Zach Lambert 27:48
You should think about, though.
Chris McAlilly 27:49
I look forward to hearing that one from you, Eddie.
Eddie Rester 27:53
Yeah, I'll let you know. Yeah.
Zach Lambert 27:55
So, then, you know, Noah wakes up, and he's really mad at Ham, supposedly, because he saw
him naked, even though it's like you're reading it, it's like 100% Noah's fault. And he curses
Ham, and he says, "You're going to be basically subject to your brothers. You're going to your
people are going to be enslaved to your brothers for generations and generations." And so
people have said, well, you know, during the American chattel slave movement, they said, well,
actually, the descendants of Ham are Africans, and so us enslaving them is fine, because God
cursed them way back when.
Zach Lambert 28:29
And like now we listen to an interpretation like that, and we're like, "That's nuts," like, there's
no way that's true. But for a really long time, in fact, over 50% of the written defenses of
chattel slavery in America were written by pastors in the south talking about things like the
curse of Ham or, you know, grabbing a couple of words from Ephesians 5,
"slaves obey your masters," then saying, "This is God ordained." Now, again, we've been able
to get to a point in society where we say that is a terrible interpretation.
Zach Lambert 28:57
But we've done that with other things too, Eddie, to your point, right, the subjugation of
women. We've said you have to be subject to your husbands, or you can't lead in church or
whatever it is, all because this is God's ordained structure. But we always have to ask, who
does this benefit? Who does this interpretation benefit? Does it benefit the abusive husband or
the vulnerable wife? Does it benefit the enslaver or the enslaved? And if it's not, if it's
benefiting a very small group of powerful people who are wielding that power in terrible ways,
then I would say that interpretation is very problematic.
Chris McAlilly 29:32
I do think the notion of just paying attention to power, power dynamics, I think, is a helpful,
helpful reminder, when you're thinking about the Bible, the text of the Bible, and then how it's
interpreted. I wonder if we might move over, if you guys are good with it, to some of the more
helpful lenses that you lift up. And so one of them, the Jesus lens, just, you know, my
understanding of that is just simply,a lot of people, if you're picking up the Bible for the first
time, we... My son got a fifth grade Bible in church on Sunday. And we're trying to teach kids
the Bible, but immediately you're like, all right, this is a book. It's like Harry Potter. You start at
the beginning, and you read it to the end, and everything kind of is equal, you know?
Chris McAlilly 30:20
I mean, you pick something up, and it all seems like if this is God's word, and so now I have to
think of it all, even the weird parts, as the Word of the Lord for me today, and so, you know,
maybe a better way to do it is to say it's all equal. It's equally authoritative for the church. But
maybe it all points in a direction, and that is, you know, for the church, that's Jesus. How did...
Just talk about... I think that there is a version of deconstruction that would completely
deconstruct even that dimension of biblical interpretation. Why not go all the way and throw
Jesus out, too? I mean, why is Jesus any more important than any other character? How do you
think about that?
Zach Lambert 31:09
Yeah, well, I mean, if there's a personal side where I've just had enough distinct encounters
with the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that I can't throw it all away. But I also think that
because I have also seen how not just healthy engagement with Jesus in the church, but
healthy biblical interpretations leads to things like freedom and flourishing and help, that's why
I think I stay committed. I also think that, just at a real base level, if we are Christians, we're
going to own that. That phrase means "little Christ." Was first applied to followers of Jesus
pejoratively, after his death and resurrection. Like, "Oh, look at those little Christs. They act just
like that guy that the Romans executed. Can you believe it?" You know, "Their rabbi is dead
and they're still following him."
Zach Lambert 31:58
And the early church basically was like,"You know what? we're going to own that. We are little
Christ. That's exactly what." So that's our legacy. And so if we believe that Jesus is, as Paul
says, that the fullness of the Divine in bodily form and the person that we are dedicating our
lives to as little Christs, then our biblical interpretation should very simply be centered on Jesus.
Especially because the biblical authors are not univocal in how they describe things. They're
not monolithic in how they understand things.
Zach Lambert 32:29
And really, my hope is that most of this stuff is not that controversial, honestly, like the stuff in
here is not super groundbreaking. I'm trying to kind of put it all together in a way that is easily
accessible. But okay, so let me give you an example. The Old Testament biblical authors, the
Jewish scribes and prophets and all that stuff, they have this ongoing conversation in the Jewish
Scriptures about what's most important, is it mercy, or is it sacrifice? Right? So some very
much believe the sacrificial system is God ordained, is God's ordained way of relating to God
and receiving forgiveness and all of that stuff. And then some said, well, actually, that's not as
important as mercy. Mercy from God, mercy to others, right? And you have maybe Malachi,
who would be on that train that said, you know, God's saying, "Shut the temple doors, stop
worshiping. I don't even care anymore, because you're not doing the things I asked you to do,
mercy, justice," whatever.
Zach Lambert 33:24
This is an ongoing dialog between the Old Testament authors. Then Jesus arrives on the scene.
Jesus gets asked about this, and he says, "Go learn what it means. I desire mercy, not
sacrifice." He settles it, you know, like this is happening a number of different times, where
there was discussions about the place of violence in resistance of empire. There was all these
discussions, right? Then you have Jesus say to "Peter, put away your sword. You live by the
sword. You die by the sword," right? And so I think, like, Christians should be committed to non
violent resistance, because that's the way of Jesus, rather than maybe, like, okay, you know
Elijah defeats the prophets of Baal and, you know, the fire comes down. You know that that
story, right? And then he gets a little carried away, and he's like, let's execute all 800 prophets
of Baal here, right? So we have these two pictures. Okay, we're both kind of fighting against
these, more like oppressive empire, religion, whatever. Well, when that happens, do we do that
violently or non violently? Well, I think that we have to choose Jesus in those interpretations.
Chris McAlilly 34:24
So do you think...
Eddie Rester 34:26
One of the things you say...
Chris McAlilly 34:32
Oh, no, sorry to interrupt.
Eddie Rester 34:33
I was just going to read Zach's book back to him.
Chris McAlilly 34:33
Yeah, you should do that.
Eddie Rester 34:33
It says "Euro Christians spend so much time arguing about what is biblical and unbiblical, when
really we should be distinguishing between what is Christ like and what is un-Christ like. Loving
your neighbor..." You quote John, Jordan Harrell,"Genocide is biblical. Loving your enemy is
biblical. Only one is Christ like. Slavery is biblical. Chain breaking is biblical, but only one is
Christ like." And so and that goes on a little bit. I think that's kind of the heart of what you're
trying to express is that when we have a choice to make, we choose the way of Jesus.
Zach Lambert 35:04
That's right. That's right because the Bible is... There's a lot in there.
Eddie Rester 35:08
Yeah.
Zach Lambert 35:09
You have something like the Canaanite genocide that is still right now, being used to justify
violence against entire people groups. And we have to be able to say just because that's in
Scripture does not mean it's prescribed by God. Those are not the same thing.
Eddie Rester 35:23
Right. Chris, I'm sorry I interrupted you a second ago.
Chris McAlilly 35:23
Um, no, that's okay. I think I'm just thinking about, I feel like I have an understanding where
you come from. You come from the Southern Baptist tradition. You come from a more
fundamentalist, kind of evangelical background, you know. I wonder... And then, you know, I
think one of the things that I hear, if people are critiquing this journey, kind of a journey away
from the evangelical church into a more kind of moderate, progressive direction, is like, what
are the boundaries? Where do you, you know what I mean? So I wonder, like, if you would talk
about that related to Jesus, because it seems like you have strong convictions that Jesus is
somebody we should follow. Do you think of Jesus as a good moral teacher? Do you think of
Jesus as the Son of God? Kind of how do you navigate these more kind of theological questions
that maybe come from the other end of concern?
Zach Lambert 36:17
Yeah, I'm pretty, pretty old school, creedal Orthodox, honestly. So I'm committed to the full
divinity of Christ and the full humanity of Christ, the death, burial and bodily resurrection of
Christ. I think Jesus was God incarnate, and that if you read the Jesus lens chapter of the book
that's going to come through. I mean, that really is the central point. I think that Jesus also was
an amazing moral teacher and also an amazing moral exemplar. I think from a theological
perspective around like atonement theories, I've moved away completely from something like
penal substitutionary atonement and more towards something like mostly Christus Victor, like
Jesus kind of demonstrating God's power over sin and death and evil, but also something called
recapitulation theory and atonement, which is basically this idea that not only is Jesus the
fullness of God in human form, Jesus is the kind of true human, like what we were always
supposed to be, what we were always designed to be. And so that recapitulation is Jesus
demonstrating what it means to be fully human. And so that's a lot of what I mean by the way
of Jesus is following not just God in a body, but also like the true human who shows us what
we're supposed to be doing.
Chris McAlilly 37:33
Yeah, that's fantastic. So this idea of recapitulation, it emerges in the early church. I think of it
as like, connected to Irenaeus, and Irenaeus is one of the early church fathers. And this sense
that we are, our humanity is kind of gathered up in Jesus, and Jesus is the new human being.
And because Jesus has kind of lived our life fully and better than we could do it, it kind of
creates these new possibilities for humanity.
Zach Lambert 37:59
Exactly.
Chris McAlilly 38:00
And Lord knows, we need examples of, you know, fresh and new ways of being human that
would be more life giving than just death dealing. And I think that's where there's real energy in
life, I think, to preaching in this kind of an environment, and really, like, if you're kind of, you
know, exploring faith, it's a good time to jump in, because the world is a dumpster fire. And I do
think that there's... I guess, if you retain, if you kind of move away from this more kind of
fundamentalist, evangelical reading of Scripture, but retain a sense of God's power at work in
Jesus to make us new humanity. That's a really vibrant way to engage.
Chris McAlilly 38:45
And I think specifically for people who are in despair, I just see, I think that's maybe coming
back to that original question that we're thinking about, like, what is it? What do I see going on
in Oxford right now? I see a lot of people in despair. I see people that are hopeless. I see people
who are struggling for a handhold, and I think it's the power, a power that is greater than our
own, this higher power, that could free us, deliver us from, you know, bondage to shame or
guilt or depression or despair or addiction or whatever those things are that are really holding
you down, like that's the power of this.
Chris McAlilly 39:23
And, you know, I that's what I sense in kind of the vision of Restore as a church. It's not just a
way to read the Bible. It's a way to be community around this reading of the Bible and this Lord
that can free you and lead you into a life of healing and freedom and flourishing. I hope, yeah, I
mean, I wonder, is that, like... I think maybe move into that flourishing lens, if you don't mind,
like, based on this kind of reading of Scripture, kind of rooted in Jesus, what does it mean to
read the the Bible with this lens towards personal and collective flourishing?
Zach Lambert 39:58
Yeah. Yeah, I'll group these last two together. I have one of context which is pretty self
explanatory, just historic, cultural genre, that kind of stuff. But flourishing and fruitfulness really
come from the teachings of Jesus. So flourishing, you have Jesus weaving this thread
throughout his times of teaching, starting in Luke 4, where he gives his first sermon in his
hometown synagogue, and he says, "I've come to bring good news to the poor, freedom to the
captives, set the oppressed free," you know, "declare the year of the Lord's favor, the year of
Jubilee." And he's like, not just for some people, but for all people. And they get really upset,
and they try to kill him, you know. And he runs away. But that's the initial thing, right?
Zach Lambert 40:37
And then you go all the way, fast forward to Matthew 25 and he's saying, basically, the way you
help the least of these flourish is the most important thing. And that's how you actually treat
me. You know, the hungry, the thirsty, all that. But then the center point for me is John 10 and
10, the famous text, right, where Jesus gives a one sentence mission statement,
"I have come that they might have life and life to the full." I think you can say, he said,
"I've come that people might flourish. That's the most important thing to me." And so if that's the
reason Jesus came, the most important thing is that we flourish, then our Bible interpretation should be
leading to flourishing. And...
Chris McAlilly 41:15
Yeah. Amen.
Zach Lambert 41:15
We should be looking for places where flourishing is not happening, and trying to bridge the
gap between where people are and where God wants them to be. So like, whether you're
talking about recovery ministry, that I know you do, Chris, from what you've said, and I know
Eddie, y'all do that at Lovers Lane like crazy, one of the preeminent places in America that does
that. Like...
Eddie Rester 41:34
Zach preached a sermon about the founding pastor of Lovers Lane and his work with the
recovery community. So, yeah. That's an aside.
Zach Lambert 41:43
Y'all are doing some... That's the work of flourishing, right? And our biblical interpretation
should be leading us to be involved in recovery ministries, to be involved in the work of
liberation. And then the fruitfulness one is deeply connected. Whereas Jesus said,
"You'll know my followers by their fruit." You want to know who is truly trying to follow me? Are they
producing love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self
control, with love being the primary measure. And so it's not just that our beliefs and behaviors
should be leading to more of those things. It's that our very Bible interpretation should be
leading to more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, et cetera, in us and in the world.
Zach Lambert 41:57
And I think that's a really good barometer when we're checking on an interpretation. Like Chris,
you asked about kind of guard rails earlier. If you have a history of a biblical interpretation, and
you're able to look at it and say, what's the fruit of this interpretation? The subjugation of
women, we talked about earlier, what's the fruit of that right? Like women staying in abusive
marriages for way longer than they ever should. That's toxic fruit. That's not love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness. And so we should be able to say, Well, Jesus said you're going to know
them by their fruit, and that the fruit of the Holy Spirit leads to this. And so there must not be
any leading of the Holy Spirit in this biblical interpretation, because it's not leading to any of
the things that the Spirit should produce.
Eddie Rester 43:04
And I think in this moment in church history, we have to do some deep soul searching, because
couple years ago, research came out that for the first time since they've been keeping the stat,
less than 50% of Americans claim to be church members anywhere. The numbers of people
that are falling off have fallen off. I think it's a moment where we say, okay, maybe some of the
ways that we have been reading scripture living out as church, I mean, there are a lot of things
that cascade from the way we read scripture, but maybe it's time for us to really sit back and
think what is not bearing fruit for us as the body of Christ, not as the institutional church, but as
the people? What is not drawing people to Christ? I think that's one of the things that's at stake
in how we read the Bible.
Zach Lambert 43:57
Absolutely.
Eddie Rester 43:58
What, Chris, Zach, I'd love to hear. What are some other things just real quick that are at stake
in the way we read Scripture?
Chris McAlilly 44:07
I think it's life and death, man. I think it's. I really do. I'm not just like this. I think it's life and
death. I think people are... You're on a trajectory. I appreciate, yeah, "I come that you might
have life." I think the alternative is that people choose death for themselves, for others. It really
is, like, a lot's at stake. Because you can create in your own heart, in your own mind, in your
own imagination, in your own will, a desire that you and others might have life, that they, you
know that... And we're going to fail. I mean, we fail again and again and again again, but I
think, you know, as an orientation, it's pretty good one for a community of faith, for a pastor
trying to preach a sermon, you know, for anybody, for a fifth or sixth grader trying to read the
Bible for the first time. Like, you know, is this life giving to me, to us, or is it not? It's probably a
pretty good question. And I appreciate just being reminded of that. What would you say, Zach?
Zach Lambert 45:10
No, I mean, that point is incredibly well made. I think we can't forget that Jesus' one sentence
mission statement is juxtaposed to the work of the thief. The enemy comes to steal, kill and
destroy. But Jesus said, "I'm come that they may have life and life abundantly." When you ask
that question, Eddie, I thought about some of the modern ways, the current ways we're seeing
scripture weaponized. This obviously didn't make it into the book because it hadn't happened
when I was writing it. But it was just a few weeks ago that the Department of Homeland
Security released a video with Isaiah over the top of it, saying,
"Here I am, send me," and it's B-roll of ICE agents doing violence to immigrants.
Zach Lambert 45:54
And I think about like, if there was a video picture of the weaponization of Scripture and the
steal, kill, and destroy, like, that's it. And so this is not an ancient problem. It's not even just a
church problem. This is a world problem. And so what I've been telling people related to the
book is, even if you are not someone who is currently engaged in church, or would call yourself
a Christian, this stuff affects you, because people at the highest levels of our society are
weaponizing scripture in order to do things like hierarchy and control and justify violence and
all of that kind of stuff.
Zach Lambert 46:29
I mean, I have this whole part in the book about Revelation and how if we are teaching that
Jesus is ultimately going to come back and basically just murder everyone who doesn't agree
with him, then it makes it a lot easier for us to do violence to our enemies in God's name right
now, because if that's what Jesus is ultimately going to do, then we might as well start.
Chris McAlilly 46:49
Yeah, it reminds me of a conversation we have with this guy Michael Wear a while back, who
writes on the spirit of our politics. And he essentially says, when it comes to politics, you know,
there are two prominent approaches to Christianity. One is that it's either useless or something
to be used to serve political ends. I think that that just happens again and again. And then his
call, which I find to be very similar to yours, is simply that we put our politics under the gospel,
and allow the gospel to kind of be the filter. You know, what you're calling a Jesus centered
lens, to be the filter through which we interpret, analyze, and navigate questions of politics or
ethics.
Chris McAlilly 47:38
Your book is awesome. I wonder, the name of the book, Eddie, you have it right in front of you.
Eddie Rester 47:38
And I would add to that the full Jesus. Because too many Christians in leadership... I fought a
battle one time, a pitched battle, somebody who only wanted to sing hymns about the blood of
Jesus. I was like, there's a whole lot more to Jesus than from one day. There's a whole lot more
to Jesus than that there. There's a whole wealth of who Jesus was and how Jesus lived and what
Jesus had to say to us. And so I think, for me, what's at stake is, can we release Jesus to be
Jesus when we read Scripture and teach people?
Eddie Rester 48:06
Yeah, It's,
"Better Ways to Read the Bible."
Eddie Rester 48:21
By Zach Lambert.
Chris McAlilly 48:21
And you pick it up, I assume wherever you can buy books. And..
Zach Lambert 48:21
Yeah, it's everywhere. It came out August 12. And yeah, Amazon, Bookshop, you want to
support local people. It's Barnes and Noble, the whole thing. So yeah, love for you to get a copy
if it's helpful.
Eddie Rester 48:21
Zach, I know it's been a fun ride with the book, but thank you. Thank you for spending some
time with us today.
Zach Lambert 48:49
Thanks so much for having me, guys. This was a great conversation.
Eddie Rester 48:52
[OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like,
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Chris McAlilly 49:00
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