0031 - The Weight - Ryan Danker - We’ve Been Here Before
Shownotes
As members of the body of Christ, we have a unique calling to live as a transformed community, embraced by the grace and love of God. Members of the early church understood God’s hunger for justice and served with compassion. Centuries later, political allegiances seem to outweigh the unified vision that equips us to live as disciples. As we look back on the foundation of the church, how does history inform us about the current cultural moment? How do we navigate the political world as faithful people?
Dr. Ryan Danker is the Associate Professor of Church History and Methodist Studies at Wesley Theological Seminary. He is an active United Methodist and church historian who enjoys engaging with the early Wesleyan/Methodist movement under John and Charles Wesley. Danker serves on the editorial board for Firebrand, an online magazine that sparks dialogue among various related traditions in the church, and co-hosts the YouTube channel Secondhand Religion. Danker values a holistic approach to the Christian faith, calling attention to the living influence of deceased icons in the church who mirrored Christ in a sacred, yet human way.
He joins Eddie and Chris to talk about the traditions and ideas that shaped John and Charles Wesley, the history surrounding the Church of England and the rise of Methodism, and the notion of entire sanctification. Danker calls us to consider the theological base of our politics, not the political base of our theology. Using history as his guide, Danker brings us a sense of peace for this current cultural moment and challenges us to live out our vocation as Christians united under the waters of baptism.
The Weight Afterthoughts
We've realized that a lot of great conversation actually happens AFTER we say goodbye to our guests and turn the microphones off. So, we decided to turn the mics back on (and a camera) and create a new segment called, Afterthoughts.
This will live on our new YouTube channel and you can find our Afterthoughts on this episode NOW!
Resources:
Learn more about Ryan’s work at Wesley Theological Seminary here:
https://www.wesleyseminary.edu/employees/ryan-danker/
Find Ryan’s work on Amazon:
Exploring a Wesleyan Political Theology
Wesley and the Anglicans: Political Division in Early Evangelicalism
Read Ryan’s Firebrand articles here:
Access Secondhand Religion here
Explore Ryan’s teachings on Seedbed:
https://www.seedbed.com/author/ryandanker/
Follow Ryan on social media:
Full Transcript
Eddie Rester : 0:00
I'm Eddie Rester.
Chris McAlilly : 0:01
I'm Chris McAlilly.
Eddie Rester : 0:03
Welcome to The Weight. Today our guest is Ryan Danker, who is a church history professor at Wesley Seminary in Asbury, Kentucky.
Chris McAlilly : 0:13
Couple years ago, I came across a book of his. It was a project he was involved in called "Exploring a Wesleyan Political Theology." This is a conversation about politics and the church, not only in 2020, but from...
Eddie Rester : 0:27
About 1682.
Chris McAlilly : 0:29
Yeah, forward. And I think you'll find it refreshing because it gives us some, I mean, it's not the current moment. And it, I think, will give you some perspective to think about matters from a slightly different angle.
Eddie Rester : 0:43
It reminds me that history is important, really kind of digging into history, not the gloss-over that we typically get or the focus-in just on, you know, the main character or the one that we would say, "Oh, this this guy or this woman---they were great. Let's honor them." But really the, "What was life like then?" Because even though right now we would tell these days are hard and difficult and terrible, history presents us with lots of hard and terrible and difficult years.
Chris McAlilly : 1:16
If you are a Methodist or from a Wesleyan tradition, I think you'll find it interesting. But if you're not, stay with this episode, because I do think there's something about the Methodist revival that I think has something to say about how the church engages in the world today, particularly in the political realm. There's a moral vision that undergirds this particular branch. Of course, we're privy to it. We're partial to it because we're Methodist pastors, but I think you'll learn something about that and hopefully something that will help you as you think about how you live out your convictions and commitment in the world today.
Eddie Rester : 1:58
If you want to know a little bit more about Ryan, you can check out a couple of the projects that he's involved with. He's involved in the Firebrand project and the Secondhand Religion project. We didn't get to talk about those.
Chris McAlilly : 2:10
We'll put it in the show notes.
Eddie Rester : 2:11
We'll put it in the show notes.
Chris McAlilly : 2:12
[SINGS] Drop it in the show notes.
Eddie Rester : 2:13
Is there a theme for the show notes now?
Chris McAlilly : 2:15
I don't know.
Eddie Rester : 2:15
I didn't know if there was a theme for the show notes.
Chris McAlilly : 2:18
No, I don't--are you talking about, like, a theme song?
Eddie Rester : 2:20
A theme song.
Chris McAlilly : 2:20
You want me to do a theme song?
Eddie Rester : 2:21
Let's not do that today.
Chris McAlilly : 2:22
Okay. I won't do that today. Maybe next week.
Eddie Rester : 2:23
Maybe next week. So people will have to come back.
Chris McAlilly : 2:25
Come back for the... I was gonna try it.
Eddie Rester : 2:29
No, don't. Just...
Chris McAlilly : 2:30
I'm not gonna try it.
Eddie Rester : 2:31
Let's enjoy this one.
Chris McAlilly : 2:31
Listen to the episode.
Eddie Rester : 2:33
[INTRO] Let's be honest, there's some topics that are too heavy for a 20 minute sermon. There are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.
Chris McAlilly : 2:42
We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today. We'll cover everything from art to mental health, social injustice to the future of the church.
Eddie Rester : 2:54
If it's something that culture talks about, we need to be talking about it too. [END INTRO]
Chris McAlilly : 3:00
We're here today with Ryan Danker, Associate Professor of Church History and Methodist Studies at Wesley Theological Seminary. Ryan, thanks for being here today.
Ryan Danker : 3:10
Hey, it's good to be with you.
Eddie Rester : 3:12
Yeah, it's great to have you. Looking forward to our conversation today. Now, you teach history, particularly deep into Methodist history. So give folks who may not be familiar with theological education and all that, what is it that you teach and what do you hope your students catch from you when you--not "catch," that's bad language right now, I guess. What do you hope...
Chris McAlilly : 3:37
"What do you want to infect your class with?" [LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester : 3:41
What do you hope they walk away with?
Chris McAlilly : 3:43
What a great way to start the podcast today, Eddie.
Eddie Rester : 3:44
I know. There you go.
Ryan Danker : 3:46
Oh, I love it. Thank you, Eddie. I want to infect my students with the orthodox faith of the church is what I want to infect them with. But, as a historian, I mean, my job is to talk about what God has been doing in the world since the end of the apostolic age. I mean that's essentially where church history picks up: the apostles are dying off, the age of bishops is coming into play. And I get to tell the students, I say, "I'm going to introduce you to the family you didn't know you have. And they are of every nationality, color, language. They are men and women. They are illiterate and literate. They're crazy, and they're sane and then kind of sane." I mean, they're just, it's just like everyone's family. Right.
Eddie Rester : 4:41
Right.
Chris McAlilly : 4:42
That's right.
Ryan Danker : 4:43
And that's what I get to do as a church historian, And at Wesley, I actually teach a two-class sequence of Church History 101 and Church History 102. And so essentially, I take them from, essentially, the death of St. Paul, all the way up to Billy Graham.
Eddie Rester : 5:05
Wow.
Ryan Danker : 5:05
And it's quite the sweep.
Eddie Rester : 5:07
So, so before we dive into some specific things, what's your--out of all of that--what's maybe a favorite moment in church history or a favorite kind of anecdote from church history that always maybe inspires or catches the students off guard?
Ryan Danker : 5:25
Hmm. You know, I think when they realize how passionate the church fathers were, and how just enamored with Jesus the church fathers were. Also when they find out how crunchy and earthy Martin Luther was. [LAUGHTER]
Eddie Rester : 5:47
You know, I took I took church history at Duke. And what's his name? His name's escaped... Steinmetz taught
Ryan Danker : 5:55
David Steinmetz.
Eddie Rester : 5:56
David Steinmetz. And so when he talked about Martin Luther, he really, I mean, he had been to the places Martin Luther had been. If he could have been Martin Luther, I think he would have been Martin Luther, and "crunchy" is the right word.
Ryan Danker : 6:10
Oh, yeah. Well, and David was just like Martin. So [LAUGHTER]
Chris McAlilly : 6:15
That's funny. I feel like church history is something that the church proper doesn't spend enough time with. We don't spend enough time. I guess in Protestantism particularly, we've kind of thrown off our engagement with the lives of the saints. And I feel like for me, when I went to seminary and encountered both the deep and rich intellectual tradition, and then also the kind of living icons that the saints were, just kind of the lived faith in the world that wasn't inaccessible because it was biblical, but it was, you know, beyond the Bible. But these are real people living in the world. It was... it kind of blew my, you know, just kind of a headrush.
Eddie Rester : 7:06
Eye opening. Yeah.
Chris McAlilly : 7:07
It was awesome. I mean, it really changed my perspective on the church. If the only thing you think about when you think about the church is the people living right now, I mean, we're not very impressive, right? Like, we're...
Ryan Danker : 7:20
Hey.
Chris McAlilly : 7:22
Hey, man, hey, I'm speaking about Eddie. I'm not, you know, present company excluded, okay? But you know what I mean. There's a kind of exhilaration to seeing the faith, the living faith of the dead is I've heard it described.
Ryan Danker : 7:39
Right? Well, I think, you know, we highlight people in church history sometimes for notorious reasons, like areas, the arch-heretic or something like that. But for the most part, we highlight people who--and I love the fact you use the term "icon." These people reflect Christ. They mirror Christ. And I think it's amazing for people to see, for contemporary Christians, to see these people and to see yeah, they reflected Christ but they're also really human. I mean, they made mistakes, too. You know, even our beloved John Wesley wasn't perfect in the sense of never making a mistake.
Chris McAlilly : 8:25
When did church history come alive for you?
Ryan Danker : 8:29
Hmm. That's a good question. I think, probably... Well, it goes back to it goes back to probably late middle school, early high school. I guess I was an odd teenager. I was raised in the church of the Nazarene. And so we heard about holiness all the time and entire sanctification all the time. And finally, I asked the pastor I said, "All right," because I couldn't say what this was. So I said, "Give me some books on entire sanctification." And so he did. He gave me a stack of books from the Nazarene publishing house. And I noticed every single one of these books kept on referencing John Wesley. And so I thought, "Well, why am I reading these people?" So I started reading Wesley, and I found this rich tradition and this holistic approach to the faith. And I think it's then when I really fell in love with church history in particular. I've always been fascinated with history, but church history, I think came alive for me through John Wesley.
Eddie Rester : 9:44
I don't think I was thinking about church history in middle school and high school. You mentioned a phrase, "entire sanctification." And so, you know, as Methodists we throw around, you know, justification, sanctification, prevenient grace, all these. What is, for folks who are sitting there going, "Well, I've heard that. I don't... I have no idea what that is." What is entire sanctification?
Ryan Danker : 10:10
You know, I think the best description of it is that it is that point when God has cleansed your heart, so that God's love is actually reigning in your heart and sin is no longer reigning in your heart and in your life. So the love of God is just kind of flowing out of your heart. And that's one of the ways that Wesley talked about it. Essentially, as we walk with Christ--and it's both a process and an instantaneous moment, this always throws people off. Especially most Methodists. Most Methodists just want to talk about the process and never admit that there's a moment when God might actually sanctify you. But Wesley was went very emphatic about it. That there's a point where, in your walk with the Lord, He will cleanse your heart so that sin is no longer reigning. And I think that's the best description of it. At least, the most accessible. We could talk about it for days. But
Chris McAlilly : 11:13
Yeah, we could talk about it.
Eddie Rester : 11:13
And Wesley did. I mean, he talked about it, you know, over and over and over and over because it got him in trouble.
Chris McAlilly : 11:19
I think it has real implications, though. I mean, it had implications in the 18th century within the Church of England. It has implications today. I mean, one of the things I've heard you talk about in some of your work is how distinctive this idea that what could happen through God's, you know, transformative love in a person's heart and life, that there was a kind of vacancy in 18th century Church of England, for any number of reasons. There are a lot of historic, I mean... the history of the Church of England is all over the map, especially before the 18th century. But there were these passionate Christians that had been expelled from the Church of England. There was a kind of vacuum. And it wasn't just Wesley. There was a kind of revivalism, an evangelical revivalism in the early 18th century that was centered for Methodists or for Wesleyans, you know, for the movement that the Wesley brothers kind of got off the ground, around this idea of new birth that was not just transformative for individuals, but it also had real social and political dimensions to it. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Ryan Danker : 12:35
Yeah, I think. Yeah, a couple things. You mentioned what's known as the Great Ejection, when 2,029--if you want to know the exact number--clergy were ejected from their appointments, I'll use Methodist lingo. They were kicked out of their appointments on St. Bartholomew's Day in 1660, 1662 excuse me. So it's interesting, out of those there were actually some of those people were relatives of John and Charles Wesley. Their great-grandfather, right, was one of them. But it's that group who would later become the dissenters and such. And it's out of that group that you find this this emphasis on experiential religion, or not out of that group, but in that group, mainly coming from the Puritan tradition. Right? There's the Puritan tradition was alive and well in the Wesley household, despite the fact that they were staunch Anglicans, because that experiential religion was there. But I would also add that the Wesleys were formed by the high church Anglican tradition that actually was behind the ejection of that other group. And it's out of that high church Anglican tradition, focused on the church fathers, that you'll find the emphasis on holiness. And so it's interesting to bring those two together because Wesley kind of brings those traditions together in a way that wasn't politically possible, for those groups, at least in 18th century England.
Chris McAlilly : 14:21
I think...
Ryan Danker : 14:21
I always tell my...
Chris McAlilly : 14:22
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Go ahead.
Ryan Danker : 14:24
I just always tell my students that Methodism didn't arise in a vacuum and Wesleyan thought has to be grounded in the rich English religious tradition out of which it arose. Because this shaped and formed the Wesley brothers profoundly. Everything from even as something as simple as the definition of grace itself, which you can find in the Book of Common Prayer, in morning prayer, the collect for grace gives the definition of grace that Wesley used his entire life and that's coming out of that rich, more high Church Anglican perspective.
Chris McAlilly : 15:01
We're recording this in September 2020. So we're in the middle of a pretty turbulent period of time, both in the church and in, you know, kind of in North American, in American politics. It really kind of, you know, if you want to put this moment in perspective, go back and read kind of the history of England in terms of religious and political history from about 1662 up into, you know, the early 1800s. It's, I mean, it's a total different kind of level of turbulence. What have you learned from your immersion in that period of time? And I guess, how does it help you think about this moment, and maybe a different way?
Ryan Danker : 15:49
Well, being a historian, I think, makes me less impressed with our current moment. And by "impressed" I mean, less worried.
Eddie Rester : 15:59
I think that's important for people to hear that.
Ryan Danker : 16:04
Yeah, I keep on hearing people say things like, "After COVID, nothing will ever be the same and everything will be different and all." And I'm thinking, "This is not the first pandemic that we've been through." In fact, it's not the first pandemic America has been through. But your initial question, Chris, was about the the long 18th century. The long 18th century is a period of time where the people of the British Isles and of course we can start talking about Britain at that point, because in 1707, you have the active union, with England, Wales, and Scotland to make them one country essentially, or at least one kingdom. There's this desire for peace that dominates that entire period. The establishment wants peace. The people in general want peace. This is the age of the Hanoverians, right. They're going to go out of their way to install a dynasty that is distinctly Protestant, because they didn't even want to deal with Catholics at all, because they're afraid that Catholics are going to bring war. And then and then you've got the dissenters who they treat as second-class citizens and they don't trust and they think every dissenter is a rebel in disguise. But mainly they're called Presbyterians, Baptists, by the way. At the same time, you've got a number of really interesting things happening politically in the midst of this desire for peace. Two things: One, you have this movement that really begins with the restoration of the monarchy, and it's accentuated with the Glorious Revolution. But what it is, is it's this idea of progress as restoration. And I think that's key to understanding the long 18th century. By the way, for your listeners, historians use that term "long 18th century" and it means roughly 1660 to 1832. I think we all know that centuries don't work from, you know, 1700 to 1800. Like, you know, cultures don't shift like that.
Eddie Rester : 18:22
Right.
Ryan Danker : 18:23
Anyway. There was this turn toward restoring the best of the past. And in the church, it was a return to the solid footing of the episcopacy, to the prayer book, and to the church fathers. And that really shaped John Wesley, by the way, that idea of "restoration." That even shapes his own understanding of salvation. "We are restored to the image and likeness of God as we were intended to be," the way he writes about it. But also, the period is marked by rebellion and then empire. The rebellions come in 1715 and 1745. The Jacobites--if anybody's seen "Outlander" those are Jacobites. Everybody falls in love with the Jacobites because of "Outlander," but in Britain at the time, they were the rebels. And they were trying to install Stuart dynasty and bring back Catholics to the throne. These are major revolts. Methodism, interestingly enough, arises in between these two massive rebellions. And people look at Methodism in the midst of this period of rebellion and think, "Oh no. What new, rebellious spirit is this?" You ever wondered why mobs rose up and tried to run Wesley out of town? That's part of the reason. But also then empire, around 1750 or so, the British Empire really starts to take off. Even though they lost the American colonies, by 1800 the British Empire is coming into view in the 19th century, of course, you know, the sun will never set on it. Right? So those are some key things about it. But that's quite a bit, quite a long answer to your question.
Eddie Rester : 20:18
What made Methodism... It kind of slipped in between those two big kind of revolutionary, rebellion moments is a better way to put it, what made Methodism different in the way that it interacted? It was disturbing. John Wesley did get run off from stuff, got pushed out of churches, but there wasn't this exclusion, pushing them away, kind of putting them in a corner. What was the difference for Methodism in that moment?
Chris McAlilly : 20:46
Wasn't part of it that Wesley was a Tory? I mean, he was loyal to the king. Would that be part of it?
Ryan Danker : 20:53
Well, and he was a really weird Tory, by the way,
Eddie Rester : 20:57
He was weird, but we can get into that later.
Ryan Danker : 20:59
Yeah, he was a unique human being. I don't know. If John was here, he'd drive us all crazy. We would want to hang out with Charles.
Chris McAlilly : 21:10
Amen.
Ryan Danker : 21:11
Although Charles was very emotional, so that might get on your... it could get on your nerves. Remember, the 18th century was a very emotional center. It's not this Victorian and Edwardian stuffiness. No. It's the exact opposite. It's fascinating. Okay, but your question was about Methodism. What was, well, the problem with Methodism is that they didn't do anything new. I know everybody thinks John Wesley was this great innovator. He wasn't. He was a great amalgamator of different ideas and different things that had already been tried, and he brought it together in a new way. I like to say that he, when he innovated, it was soaked in tradition. He was definitely not in favor of innovation for the sake of innovation. But the problem is, the problem is this. The English Civil Wars of the previous centuries of the 1600s had ripped England to shreds. I mean, it had caused massive upheaval. The church is overthrown. The bishops and kicked out. The king even loses his head. And Oliver Cromwell comes to power and the Puritans take over, and it's really a mess. What's interesting about this is that the Puritans, before all this happened, they were the ones itinerating and preaching outdoors. They were the ones holding small group meetings. They were the ones talking about assurance of faith, right? Gifts that God gives you where He's, you know, He can communicate to you that you're a child of God, They were the ones who were asking people to write down their conversion narratives. And all this stuff is repeated by the Methodists later. And like I said, in the midst of two rebellions, and so there are a number of reasons why the Methodists were seen to be absolutely dangerous. The other thing to remember is that the Church of England isn't just another denomination. It is the established church.
Eddie Rester : 23:37
Right.
Ryan Danker : 23:38
And to have a national church, something we Americans just really don't get. I know we have a National Cathedral but that's just because the Episcopalians had the idea and a lot of money.
Eddie Rester : 23:50
And a lot of time.
Ryan Danker : 23:51
And a lot of time. They're still not the national church, even if they sometimes act like it. We don't have that. And so for Wesley to be doing things, mirroring past things that the Puritans have done at least practiced, he was seen to be trying to undermine the social fabric of England, not to start a revival.
Chris McAlilly : 24:20
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I've never thought about it quite like that. I mean, I think, you know, coming forward a little bit. I mean, you reference the National Cathedral and kind of the American context. A couple years ago, you were involved in a seminar there at at Wesley Seminary in DC. There was a book that came out of it that you edited, called "Exploring a Wesleyan Political Theology." At the beginning of that you're kind of exploring how deeply political you know Methodists and Wesleyans and have been in American politics, going back to Francis Asbury who was one of the first superintendents or bishops of Methodism in America. I mean, one of the things I didn't realize is that Asbury and
Eddie Rester : 25:11
George Washington
Chris McAlilly : 25:12
George Washington had a couple meetings. Can you tell folks about that? And then also kind of what do you, in the American context, what has been different about the Wesleyan or Methodist engagement with politics here?
Ryan Danker : 25:31
Yeah, yeah. So Francis Asbury, a fascinating character. If you haven't studied Asbury, there's a great biography called "American Saint." And
Chris McAlilly : 25:48
I learned more American history from that biography than, you know, anything in high school or college.
Ryan Danker : 25:55
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, because Asbury was, you know, he died in what? Gosh, well, he was born in 1745. He died in 1815-ish. Somebody's gonna look it up and correct me. I do get fuzzy when we come to this side of the pond. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, yeah, he did meet up with George Washington. And the issue that he brought up was, well first of all Methodist loyalty after the American Revolution, but early Methodists were abolitionists. They were adamantly against slavery. And so they sent letters and had meetings with people on a regular basis about slavery early in the Republic. That's really what that was about. But okay, but their political engagement... I mean, the context is very different over here. Methodist, there's no established church after the revolution. They are still actually established state churches. People don't know that, but states can actually have established churches. But for the most part, the Methodists were free to do what they wanted after the revolution. And what happens is, of course, you know, Wesley sends over Thomas Coke and Whatcoat and Vasey to set up the Methodist Episcopal Church, and they did that there in Baltimore at Lovely Lane. Well, Lovely Lane Chapel. Lovely Lane Church is in a different location, even if it's in Baltimore. I don't want to confuse people. But you should visit that church anyway. It's called one of the cathedrals of Methodism. But Methodism early on, yeah, they had that abolitionist streak in them. That kind of goes away at least as a driving force because they realized that they really couldn't get into the South carrying that radical message with them. And so there's compromise that they make. And the compromise is, "We want to get into the South. And we think evangelism is more important than our political commitments." And so... Although let me say this: their abolitionism was not based on politics. It was based on theology. The abolitionism of Wesleyanism is based on the idea that all people are made in the image of God. I think that's one of the things that Wesleyanism can teach us about politics even today, is that our politics needs to be theologically based, not our theology politically based. That's something that's key.
Eddie Rester : 28:42
I want to come back to that in a few minutes. I want you to continue this thread, but I want us to come back to that, politics being theologically based. So let's put a kind of a pin there and I'll let you finish that thought, then I want us to loop back around that.
Ryan Danker : 28:58
Yeah, that's great. I mean, essentially what happens in the 18th century, sorry, the 19th century, here in the states is that Methodism just takes off in this evangelistic romp across the continent. You know, there's a hymn that they would sing, "We're planting a church a day." And it was not an exaggeration. In fact, David Hempton has shown--he's a social historian; he's the Dean of Harvard Divinity School--he's shown that Methodist growth between 1784, when the Methodist Episcopal Church was founded, and 1844, when it split in north and south, if that trajectory had continued, that rate of growth had continued up to 1900, by 1900, there would have been more Methodists in the United States than human beings. Um...
Chris McAlilly : 30:07
I think that's one of the reasons why people continue... I mean, folks that, I mean, it feels a little bit like kind of an intramural conversation here. But I think that people widely now across Protestantism have looked at kind of this Methodist revival as a kind of model for church renewal, particularly in, you know, the American context. I think one of the things in that introduction of the "Exploring a Wesleyan Political Theology" book that I know but I forget is that just how many different approaches the Wesleyan or Methodist family has had to American politics, from Rosa Parks and Harriet Tubman forward to Tom Cotton and Jeff Sessions and George Bush and Rush Limbaugh. I mean, it's pretty wide range. What do you make of that? Does that just mean that we're wishy-washy and all over the board? Or does it mean that there are a lot of approaches that are made possible from the theological commitments of the tradition?
Ryan Danker : 31:16
Maybe both? I think Methodism in America has kind of spread out in ways that aren't always Wesleyan, if that makes sense. But at the same time, I think what it also is indicative of is the fact that for the longest time, and I don't know if it's true anymore, but Methodism was the largest Protestant denomination in the country. I mean, I know that's not true; the Southern Baptists are. But the largest Protestant denomination and for one of the largest religious grouping in the country, it's Methodist. So when you are that large, you will find various characters, like, you know, Hillary Clinton and Jeff Sessions. Put those two in a room. That'd be fun.
Eddie Rester : 32:07
Yeah.
Ryan Danker : 32:10
The reality is, though, they're both Methodists. And I, here's a caveat... I actually know Jeff Sessions. But the caveat is that they're probably both very nice people, and they'd have a lovely meal or potluck or covered dish because they're Methodists.
Eddie Rester : 32:26
Right.
Ryan Danker : 32:28
Because that's kind of part of our DNA. At the same time, I think you can see in both--let's just use those two as an example, because our listeners probably know who they are. There's a concern on their part. There's a moral vision behind the rhetoric of Hillary Clinton and Jeff Sessions. I think that's where you'll see the common Methodist origins between those two politicians who you wouldn't necessarily group together.
Chris McAlilly : 32:57
Moral vision I think is... that's interesting. I want to explore that a little bit more deeply. I guess, where does that arise within the theological commitments of the tradition? I mean, one of the ways I think about it is a deep commitment to personal holiness, you know, that finds its bearings, not just in your prayer closet by yourself, trying to kind of hammer it out. But it's a commitment to growth in holiness and a kind of growth in the transformative love of God in community with other people that then begins to transform particular local places, and then that kind of extends more broadly. Is that what you mean when you say that there's a kind of moral vision behind their political commitments? Or would you kind of take it a different direction?
Ryan Danker : 33:51
No, that's exactly where I'd take it because Methodism demands that you have to be active in your faith. There's no such thing as a passive Wesleyan. That just doesn't exist. If you find a lazy Methodist, they're not a Methodist. I don't know what they are.
Eddie Rester : 34:08
You know, one time I, one of my friends who lived down the street from me said I could never be a Methodist. They expect you to do stuff.
Ryan Danker : 34:17
Mmmhmm. They do. We got this guilt mechanism built in. Yeah.
Eddie Rester : 34:22
Yeah. It's interesting that now that we talk about that, in knowing kind of the impulses of Jeff Sessions and Hillary Clinton, yeah, you can kind of see that they're acting out of a desire to change the world out of kind of a transformed life in both of them. It's interesting talk about the pivotal role the United Methodist Church in shaping who they are.
Ryan Danker : 34:48
Yeah.
Eddie Rester : 34:49
Most people would never, you know, they would actually probably pay to put them in a room together and watch them. But I think you're right, I think that they would find because that's what Methodists do. We seek to find out, okay, what's the common life between us? Even if that plays out differently?
Ryan Danker : 35:06
Yeah, no, it's true. By the way, as somebody lives in Washington DC, I think people would be bored if they sat and watched politicians, because they'd realize that they're human beings. But anyway, that's a different [LAUGHTER] a different podcast.
Chris McAlilly : 35:21
I do think that, you know, there are... kind of a moral vision that finds its way into the national political scene. You see it in certain policy battles, kind of across the board. But I think in general, it's just, you know, I just think about a lot of people my age or younger, they've kind of given up on faith and the national political scene to kind of be the place where, if they want to invest their life in something that's going to transform the world, this is not where they go looking. You know what I mean? Is that.. I feel like, I feel like
Ryan Danker : 36:00
I'd say yes and no. Yes and no. I think Christians are realizing that that's true. But I think the increasingly... I'm not gonna say our culture is becoming secular, because I don't buy that argument. But I think that those who are really shaped by a secular mindset in this country are beginning to reach out to politics as almost a religion.
Chris McAlilly : 36:24
I heard Frederick Bauerschmidt, a Catholic Deacon, just put out a new book. I heard him talking the other day about it, and one of the things he was talking about is just how our politics are asking more of us, you know, than they have before and I think in the vacuum left by, I guess, increasingly spiritual but not religious kind of populace or commitments among people that, I don't know. It's a combination of things. It's stepping away from commitments to the church, but also the 24/seven news cycle. And then on top of that, social media, you know. It's just, we're barraged by this stuff. And I think our politics are asking of us the kinds of allegiances and commitments that are akin to kind of religious affirmation of faith almost. I was talking to Eddie about this the other day, about marriages and where it used to be that people would have concerns about marrying somebody of a different religion today, it's can you marry and sustain a marriage across political lines right now?
Ryan Danker : 37:42
That's right.
Chris McAlilly : 37:44
I don't know. It's a tough moment.
Eddie Rester : 37:48
So as you think about it, this political moment that we're in, you think back to the 18th century early Methodists and the way Wesley and those methods kind of navigated these political moments. People forget how difficult it was to have, you know, basically, an English-based denomination in the United States. The Anglicans had all left during the Revolutionary War. What can we learn from Wesley in that early movement, maybe about how we can navigate these moments, these political moments? I mean, we've got an election coming up. It's going to be the conversation at Thanksgiving tables. But also, there are so many cultural needs right now that I think need the voice of faithful people. So what do we learn about navigating the political world as faithful people?
Ryan Danker : 38:44
Well, I think the first thing we have to realize is, this summary goes back to what Chris was saying. I think our political parties are becoming our tribes. And I think Christians need to reject that. The tribalism of our political context is making dialogue almost impossible. You know, a Democrat can't marry Republican, and vice versa. I mean, the polarization that we are now living out almost in a tribalist manner, I think it's something that Christians need to reject, mainly because Christians are not united by their political commitments. They're united by the waters of baptism. And I think that we need to reinforce in the church the reality that we are called, first and foremost, to be the church and to live out, you know, the vocation of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. And these other things are secondary to that vocation and that life. My concern is with so many who have made politics their religion, and I include some of the more progressive elements in mainline Protestantism in this critique, is that, you know, they essentially say, "My hope is built on nothing less than ballot boxes and partisan ranting." And we need to move away from that. We need to move back to a scriptural Christianity that reminds us that who we are, are the baptized and faithful people of Jesus Christ. And that might sound overly pious, but I think it's a radical and even practical thing, to live out one's faith in that way, and to say, look, the political parties in the United States, in fact, come and go, despite what we might think. Even our national identity is not something that shapes and forms us to the extent that our faith is supposed to. And so they need to reflect our faith commitment and not the other way around.
Chris McAlilly : 41:07
In the book that I referenced earlier that you edited, you also have an essay in that book called "Early Methodist Societies as an Embodied Politic." And towards the end of the essay you say that, "A Wesleyan political voice is not so much a voice but action itself in the form of community. It's not standing on the street corner yelling at people with whom there is no real relationship, nor is it relying on the government to carry out a political vision that is not already embodied in a relational community. A lived out Wesleyan political theology is a much harder task than either of those, for it lays responsibility back on our laps in our lives. Within Methodist communities, we must, with God's help, create such a space in which the world can see our good works and give glory to God and heaven. Methodists have must exemplify a community of love to the world before well before it can expect the world to share values or set them in motion by means of coercion." I just thought that was beautiful. I thought it summed up something that I long for, that I want to see in the church. You see it in pockets. You certainly see it in Christian history. And every once in a while you see it crop up, even now. I guess, what were you going for in that particular essay? And then, what I hear you calling for is kind of coming back down to a very local and relational political commitment to the people that you're living very close to and then waiting for the love of God to awaken love for the community in such a way that you begin moving in active ways to meet those needs. Can you talk a little bit more about what you're writing about there?
Ryan Danker : 42:59
Yeah. Mainly what I think is... You know, there are United Methodists, if we want to focus on the UMC, there are United Methodist congregations in almost every zip code in this country. That in and of itself, whether these churches are large or small, vital or not vital, that says something about the potential reach of Methodism, if, in fact, it's radical enough to live out its own commitments, first and foremost in those churches that are already planted. And, you know, the early church, people looked at them and said, "Look, these people actually love each other." What would that be like, if people looked at our churches and said, "Look, those people love each other." You know, in the early church, they cared for the widows and for the elderly. They cared for pregnant women, because they cared for the unborn. They cared for babies whose families had left them out to die. You know, in the early church there are stories of Christians going around towns and collecting newborn infants who had been left out to die because the parents didn't want the child.
Eddie Rester : 44:21
And people forget that that the early church wasn't homogenous like it is today. It was kind of this hodgepodge of people who were, you know, grabbed by the grace of Jesus.
Ryan Danker : 44:32
Yeah, yeah, they definitely weren't organized like we are, but their actions spoke so clearly. And I think that's what I was saying in that piece. That if Methodists want to call for any kind of national political transformation, let's mirror that in our lives first. And then we can actually say to the culture, "Look, this works. We need to start replicating this in different ways." I'm not saying that the government needs to become the church nor the church the government. That's a totally different thing. But I do think that Christians have a unique calling and the grace of God to enable us to be the kind of community that actually looks like it's been transformed by the love of Jesus. And I think that has political repercussions because it's a community.
Chris McAlilly : 45:30
That's a compelling, I think, place to land today. Ryan, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for being with us today and taking us on a journey back into Christian history.
Eddie Rester : 45:41
It's been great to go back a little bit. Yeah.
Chris McAlilly : 45:43
And really appreciate you being with us today.
Ryan Danker : 45:48
It's been great to be with you.
Eddie Rester : 45:49
[OUTRO] Thank you for listening today. Go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And go ahead and hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts.
Chris McAlilly : 46:00
This wouldn't be possible without our partner, General Board of Higher Education in Ministry. We want to thank also our producer Cody Hickman. Follow us next week. We'll be back with another episode of The Weight. [END OUTRO]